North Brunswick Station

Not only would a loop make turning trains faster, but it would save electricity and possibly crew hours vs sending them all the way down the 'pike.

County yard is actually all ready pretty big, just a lot of it is grown over and not wired. They could tie in farther RR east as well, the current i think one track access isn't really useful for it to be a fully functioning yard.

This will ultimately allow higher capacity moving forward. If you don't want to clog NYP with looped trains, you could connect with coast line trains and full NEC trains at newark, and reverse them there. Track A comes to mind... Hudson yard could also be utilized.

Is the plan to close Jersey Ave with this new station (only about 2 miles apart), or keep Jersey Ave open? In rumors of the new station I heard years ago, the word was that it would replace Jersey Ave, but from the article it is not clear. Nothing against Jersey Ave, but that is a heck of a lot of riders coming up from south of there who would have a few minutes added onto their trips twice each day (at least for the non super express trains). Right now only southbound trains stop at Jersey Ave, but the new station would be northbound too. If they closed Jersey Ave, I'm not sure if those who park there now on average would have a longer or shorter drive to the new station.

Also, I couldn't get the link to work, here is one I found to work: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/0 ... anned.html

JS

EDIT: I found an old thread on a North Brunswick Transit Village discussing some of the relevant issues (at least on pages 1-2 before the thread degenerates). No mention of a loop or flyover of course! http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 69&t=72343

pumpers wrote:I couldn't get the link to work, here is one I found to work: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/0 ... anned.html

JS

Thanks, I fixed mine above as well. Here's another article with some additional details. I know funding was mentioned above, but the article also mentions it:

The costs would be covered by a mix of public and private funds [...] while it’s not yet clear whether federal funds will come into play, the company that owns the 212-acre property framed by Route 1, Commerce Road and the Northeast Corridor will foot a share of the bill.

well, the former J&J property does have plenty of room for most of a loop, you'd just need to construct the overpass and a short "onramp" onto track 1.

I'd hope they would also build connections across all 4 tracks, offset to reduce wear from trains exiting the loop.

curious- with push pull trains why do they need a loop and not just a flyover that's diagonal and then change directions?

I never really asked- besides "becasue they can" why do they loop trains in Sunnyside and Bayhead (and anyplace else?) now a days and not just reverse direction?

(I guess sunnyside might help you move accross a lot of tracks at once?- but bayhead where the line is single track very close by?

Please enlighten me on this loop to turn the trains. I take it that the loop obviates the operational difficulties of moving the reversing train from Four track all the way over to One track by switching in the face of lots of traffic, which is why the trains presently reverse in Trenton by moving over to Morrisville and realigning for the run back up the Corridor. As I understand it, presently outbound NJT trains (non-MU) operate with the locomotive on the point. Would looping them back at North Brunswick present any unusual operational difficulties with the locomotive then being on the point of an inbound train, rather than the cab car?

NEC push pulls are not designated to have the locomotive in any particular direction. That is the case at hoboken, where they try to keep the very loud diesel locos from parking up next to the concourse.

A loop would allow trains to cross all 4 tracks without fowling the tracks as it crossed over. This will improve on time performance for all trains crossing through the area, and increase capacity.

michaelk wrote:curious- with push pull trains why do they need a loop and not just a flyover that's diagonal and then change directions?

I never really asked- besides "becasue they can" why do they loop trains in Sunnyside and Bayhead (and anyplace else?) now a days and not just reverse direction?

(I guess sunnyside might help you move accross a lot of tracks at once?- but bayhead where the line is single track very close by?

The loops in those locations likley go back to the days before cab car use was common and they had to either loop or "run around" the engine to get it on the lead end for the return trip. Now they're used because they're there. Although some still do serve a purpose:

the loop in Bay Head is used daily (or at least weekdaily) in the process of yarding trains. The "shore power" for the trains to plug into at night is only available at one end of the yard, and I believe it is the "wrong" end of the yard if you were to want to get the engines facing west for trips to Hoboken. So they need to use the loop so the engines can be facing one way to plug into shore power at night and then facing the other way so they can be cab car-first into Hoboken.

The loop at Sunnyside is still useful for Amtrak trains, that primarily run locomotive first. A train can go into NYP, pull through the East River Tunnels into Queens, enter the Sunnyside loop (which directly accesses lines 1 and 3) and enter the yard head-first facing compass southwest. That way when it's time to go out again, they just pull straight out, have direct access to lines 2 and 4 and head into Penn Station on their way to points west. And if I recall the layout of F/HAROLD correctly, I think it is not possible to get from ERT lines 1 and 3 (the eastbound tubes) to the southwest entrance of Sunnyside yard. The only way into the yard from the eastbound tubes is by way of the loop. (and i think the same goes for the "exit," it only has access to lines 2 and 4 (the westbound ones), making both entrances/exits "one-way")

lnj wrote: Has the flyover track been mentioned with this station proposal before? Whether and how long it takes to get the funding for this will of course be important to watch. I must say, it's interesting to see the trend of adding stations on the Corridor in recent years when thinking about the many stations that have been closed along the Corridor in the postwar years.

[edited to fix broken link]

pumpers wrote:Is the plan to close Jersey Ave with this new station (only about 2 miles apart), or keep Jersey Ave open? In rumors of the new station I heard years ago, the word was that it would replace Jersey Ave, but from the article it is not clear. Nothing against Jersey Ave, but that is a heck of a lot of riders coming up from south of there who would have a few minutes added onto their trips twice each day (at least for the non super express trains). Right now only southbound trains stop at Jersey Ave, but the new station would be northbound too. If they closed Jersey Ave, I'm not sure if those who park there now on average would have a longer or shorter drive to the new station.

Also, I couldn't get the link to work, here is one I found to work: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/0 ... anned.html

JS

EDIT: I found an old thread on a North Brunswick Transit Village discussing some of the relevant issues (at least on pages 1-2 before the thread degenerates). No mention of a loop or flyover of course! http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 69&t=72343

The flyover was mentioned under the long range goals (2015 target date) in the NEC Transportation Plan-Proposed Track Configuration (1998) thread. The vision for this area calls for the closing of County Yard and the rationalization of County Interlocking. Jersey Ave would remain in service with high level platforms with a pedestrian bridge linking 1 and 4. County is replaced with a new high speed interlocking at Adams. A flyover at Adams will loop and lead to new NJ Storage/Short turn yard adjacent to Adams MOW base. South Brunswick Station is to be constructed with center island platforms. Room for a 5th track ( pretty much where the Industrial tracks runs to Deans) is supposed to left to connect to the future MON/OC line. It also mentions restoration of Plainsboro station.

It'll be interesting to see how much of the plan remains intact.

michaelk wrote:curious- with push pull trains why do they need a loop and not just a flyover that's diagonal and then change directions?

I never really asked- besides "becasue they can" why do they loop trains in Sunnyside and Bayhead (and anyplace else?) now a days and not just reverse direction?

(I guess sunnyside might help you move accross a lot of tracks at once?- but bayhead where the line is single track very close by?

At this point, loops are maintained just in case there is a problem with the equipment. If you have a loop, you can send a train out with a bad cab car or engine and loop it. It adds to your flexibility. As for changing direction, sure you could do that, but it would take time.

Rivetjoint wrote:Please enlighten me on this loop to turn the trains. I take it that the loop obviates the operational difficulties of moving the reversing train from Four track all the way over to One track by switching in the face of lots of traffic, which is why the trains presently reverse in Trenton by moving over to Morrisville and realigning for the run back up the Corridor. As I understand it, presently outbound NJT trains (non-MU) operate with the locomotive on the point. Would looping them back at North Brunswick present any unusual operational difficulties with the locomotive then being on the point of an inbound train, rather than the cab car?

No problem. It actually eliminates a brake test. If you're going through the trouble of building a flyover, you might as well make it a looping flyover.

it is logical.

For anyone else not familiar with that area. To alleviate the confusion I initially experienced, note that Jersey Ave Station is South of New Brunswick station(something I did know), but the town of North Brunswick is actually cardinal South of New Brunswick, but still cardinal North of the town of South Brunswick.

Anyway, I really hope that this whole project will be lumped in with the Federal High-Speed money because I can think of about 15 more worthy projects that NJT, NJDOT, and the State of NJ should be spending their money on.

I've merged a bunch of these different threads on the same topic into one topic.

Just to add my own thoughts...

If this plan does come to fruition, after all its been talked about for years now as evidenced by the merging of multiple threads, it will be interesting to see how they wedge everything in there. I would assume that the construction of a new station on the J&J site would include the redevelopment of said area. Therefore, I would also assume that the powers that be in North Brunswick would want minimal rail infrastructure (a loop) on the west side of the tracks, so as to not hinder the amount of land available for commercial and residential development. The Delco IT seems to no longer be a problem (AFAIK there are no longer any active freight customers), but whatever loop and storage yard is planned would be hindered by the presence of Adams MOW base on the east side of the tracks. Also, within the past few years a housing development and park have been built that almost completely surround the MOW base.

Lord knows that another station between New Brunswick and Princeton Jct. is desperately needed, and would probably be fully utilized immediately, regardless of the development of the J&J Property. I would personally still like to see this built in conjunction with the MOM line, but that seems like it is becoming more and more of a pie in the sky idea. Like I said, it will be very interesting (to this Middlesex County resident anyway) to see how this all plays out...

As for the expansion of County Yard, that is an interesting story.

County Yard was originally built as an electrified freight yard during the Pennsy years. Then it became a make-shift park and ride station and has remained that for many years. Then there was talk of abandoning it in recent years and have trains come entirely from Morrisville and make Jersey Avenue a mainline station. The words was that NJT wanted to sell it to Conrail. Now freight usage there is at an all time low and now they are looking at expanding NJT's usable portion of the yard.

All the while, talks about flyovers for trains for MOM (and now North Brunswick) are happening.

It'll be interesting to see what actually happens.

The former freight yard at county was much larger than the one in use today. They have room to go ll the way back towards lawrence lane from where the millstone branch splits from track 4.

lirr42 wrote:
The loop at Sunnyside is still useful for Amtrak trains, that primarily run locomotive first. A train can go into NYP, pull through the East River Tunnels into Queens, enter the Sunnyside loop (which directly accesses lines 1 and 3) and enter the yard head-first facing compass southwest. That way when it's time to go out again, they just pull straight out, have direct access to lines 2 and 4 and head into Penn Station on their way to points west. And if I recall the layout of F/HAROLD correctly, I think it is not possible to get from ERT lines 1 and 3 (the eastbound tubes) to the southwest entrance of Sunnyside yard. The only way into the yard from the eastbound tubes is by way of the loop. (and i think the same goes for the "exit," it only has access to lines 2 and 4 (the westbound ones), making both entrances/exits "one-way")

You are almost entirely correct, but the Line 2/4 side is not a "one-way" entrance/exit. I've yet to see trains come out of the loops onto Lines 1/3 (track cars/track equipment/HRC do at night), but I have seen moves go into the yard "backwards" via Line 2. Usually if they don't wanna loop a train/have the locomotive/cab car on the east end, they'll send it east via Line 2 to F/Q and the yard. On another note, Lines 1-4 are all 261 and they do swing traffic on all of them regularly.