NJT to Flemington?

Jtgshu wrote:

R36 Combine Coach wrote:I assumed no new construction assuming the BR&W used its connection to the Lehigh Valley line and ran to Bound Brook or Bridgewater.

Ohhh well thats different - and wouldn't go to Somerville then

Before we get too excited about any of this, remember one of the big stumbling blocks with West Trenton restoration is what to do at Port Reading Junction. Sure, going west on the Lehigh Line towards BRW would be easier than crossing over and going down CSX's West Trenton Line, but i wouldn't expect either NS or CSX to be too thrilled with any of these ideas....

I'm sure that NS and CSX would prefer to have NJT completely off the Lehigh Line too, but unless the state suddenly rebuilds the old CNJ main line as it used to be (hate to imagine how much they'd want to spend on something like that), that's not exactly happening. Certainly not with having a station at Kean College nowadays that a number of passengers might want retained. (I do wonder why there is no Hillside station, though.)

RWERN wrote:I hate to say this, but despite the added expense, NJT should go by the ex-CNJ branch to Flemington, with stops Somerville-Flagtown/Hillsborough-Neshanic-Three Bridges-Flemington. The distinct advantage here is that you avoid mingling with NS entirely and the ROW is almost completely unobstructed. The biggest challenges are tying it in at Somerville and getting across US 202.

Of course, and I say this often, any service that extends or branches from the RVL will be severely limited unless the RVL sees some key infrastructure improvements.

what's the problem with 202? there's 2 in use crossings under 202 at the moment. The one for the lehigh frieght line used by NS and the other that has the Black River and Western freight and sightseeing traffic are both in tact and still just fine (the highway has bridges over them both). The BR&W has specials some years that run from Flemington under 202 to Three Bridges (ending at a Deli right by where their connection to the Lehigh line currently exists)

Did you mean crossing 206? I think for Somerville you would need to rebuild the Raritan River (and 206 i think?) crossings by Duke's estate- is that what you meant?

michaelk wrote:

RWERN wrote:I hate to say this, but despite the added expense, NJT should go by the ex-CNJ branch to Flemington, with stops Somerville-Flagtown/Hillsborough-Neshanic-Three Bridges-Flemington. The distinct advantage here is that you avoid mingling with NS entirely and the ROW is almost completely unobstructed. The biggest challenges are tying it in at Somerville and getting across US 202.

Of course, and I say this often, any service that extends or branches from the RVL will be severely limited unless the RVL sees some key infrastructure improvements.

what's the problem with 202? there's 2 in use crossings under 202 at the moment. The one for the lehigh frieght line used by NS and the other that has the Black River and Western freight and sightseeing traffic are both in tact and still just fine (the highway has bridges over them both). The BR&W has specials some years that run from Flemington under 202 to Three Bridges (ending at a Deli right by where their connection to the Lehigh line currently exists)

Did you mean crossing 206? I think for Somerville you would need to rebuild the Raritan River (and 206 i think?) crossings by Duke's estate- is that what you meant?

Yes, I meant to say US 206. I think I had US 202 on the brain because the proposal is tied to reducing congestion on US 202.

Jtgshu wrote: As far as I can tell, there sure looks like houses built on the ROW in Neshanic, and wasn't the bridge in Neshanic the reason the CNJ stopped using the line towards Somerville? I don't believe there is even any track in place east of Neshanic as well as several bridges taken out, i know the one over River Road ? in Neshanic is gone, but i think thats sitting on the ROW, and i believe the bridge in Dukes estate is also removed.

The route from Somerville would be the best, but there are a LOT of issues to deal with inbetween Somerville and Three Bridges. However, it does look like NJT was smart when rebuilding Somerville station as they left the tunnel in under where the tracks used to run, so it wouldn't be real hard to build an additional platform there for the Flemington Branch, so thats a positive!

The line is pretty much abandoned and would need to be mostly rebuilt from scratch, but my point is that the ROW itself is mostly unencroached. The only private properties that appear to directly encroach the ROW are a single home on Clawson Ave in Flagtown and a few properties along Woodfern Rd in Neshanic where the periphery of the sizable plots appears to extend onto the ROW. All in all, I believe there about seven properties you'd have to directly deal with on the ex-CNJ alignment. Other than those few I've mentioned, I don't see a huge level of opposition. The line travels mainly through fields and wooded areas, not built up or populated areas. I guess a possible rub is the line cutting through Duke Farms, but I'd be somewhat surprised if the charitable foundation that runs it would be strongly opposed, especially since Duke built his estate around the tracks (since the branch was opened in 1864 and Duke began the estate in 1893).

And yes, the configuration at Somerville is a positive, though one would tend to disbelieve in NJT's forward planning when you look at other RVL stations where they put in platforms that sapped the room to add in express tracks that could really make services to Flemington, West Trenton, P'burg, and Allentown so much more attractive to potential riders.

Jtgshu wrote:

R36 Combine Coach wrote:I assumed no new construction assuming the BR&W used its connection to the Lehigh Valley line and ran to Bound Brook or Bridgewater.

Ohhh well thats different - and wouldn't go to Somerville then

Before we get too excited about any of this, remember one of the big stumbling blocks with West Trenton restoration is what to do at Port Reading Junction. Sure, going west on the Lehigh Line towards BRW would be easier than crossing over and going down CSX's West Trenton Line, but i wouldn't expect either NS or CSX to be too thrilled with any of these ideas....

not exactly sure i know the background and understand the situation-

but wouldn't (couldn't) you just come up the Lehigh line from Flemington area and then turn north BEFORE Port reading Junction to go up along polemus (sp?) ave by the trash transfer station and hook in just west of the Bridgewater Station? If I understand correctly the West Trenton Line has to cross the lehingh line from the south to the north to get to that 'polemus' track to hit the Bridgewater RVL station?

i know that a one of the passing sidings for the lehigh line is a bit west of the BR&W connection. From looking at sat pics on the internet looks like it is single track from their to ~ Roycefeild Road in Hillsborough and then double track from their to to Port Reading Junction? BUT it looks like it could get double tracked to Roycefield and then the bridges from there are either 3 or 4 tracks with only 2 sets- so room for a third. So without having a clue- looks like you could add a track on the ROW specifically for NJT all the way from the BR&W to Bridgewater Station on the RVL. So the only operational mess would be getting off the BR&W across the Lehigh line and onto the mythical NJT Track. Not so crazy it would seem. NS wouldnt be happy but maybe wouldn't despise it?

I live in the Flemington area, I'd LOVE not having to schlep up to Raritan to get a train, but I'd have to imagine this is way down the list of things to do unless it is really simple and really cheap. And it still doesn't help that the 3 wise men got to Bethlehem faster than a RVL Raritan passenger can get to NYC.

I think more realistic outcome of any study that has hundreds of millions to spend is an all highway solution fixing the half arsed job the DOT did at the somerville circle years ago and actually correction that and the adjacent First Avenue and Rt 22 intersections so that 202 actually moves. If 202 actually moves they could then invest some money in a park and ride at Raritan that is fed by 202 (it's like 3 blocks to the station from 202).

To me it's interesting that the other 2 options involve buses feeding rail (one option to Somerville and the other to Newark Penn). Since it's buses it's likely to happen- so at least they feed rail in the end.

You are correct, the Reading used to come up and cross the Lehigh Line on a diamond i believe, and met up with the CNJ (current RVL) just east of Pulhemous Lane, where the trash Xfer facility is. That track used to continue and meet up with the CNJ main. That was the route of the Crusader. I thought about this routing as well, as it would avoid Port Reading Junction for the most part, or at least interference with CSX trains. But they are still going to have to deal with NS inbetween PRJ and the connection with the BRW....something im sure NS wouldn't be thrilled about...it would probably be a given that they would insist that NJT build another track and do all these upgrades to the track inbetween here and there. Entirely doable, but of course they are going to make a stink ahhahah

You know, I think it would actually be possible (though unlikely) given the parallelism of the ex-CNJ and ex-LV ROW that you could do work on the ex-Reading connection to Bridgewater to kick-start a Flemington service over the Lehigh Line and prep the way for West Trenton service, then incrementally phase the Flemington trains off the LV by rebuilding the ex-CNJ to Somerville, linking in sections of track to the Lehigh Line at the points where the two ROWs run parallel only 100-200 feet apart, thereby reducing the amount of interference to NS over time until there is none. Just a thought if but a whimsical one.

Jtgshu wrote:You are correct, the Reading used to come up and cross the Lehigh Line on a diamond i believe, and met up with the CNJ (current RVL) just east of Pulhemous Lane, where the trash Xfer facility is. That track used to continue and meet up with the CNJ main. That was the route of the Crusader. I thought about this routing as well, as it would avoid Port Reading Junction for the most part, or at least interference with CSX trains. But they are still going to have to deal with NS inbetween PRJ and the connection with the BRW....something im sure NS wouldn't be thrilled about...it would probably be a given that they would insist that NJT build another track and do all these upgrades to the track inbetween here and there. Entirely doable, but of course they are going to make a stink ahhahah

Jtgshu,

The presentation NJT had several years ago about restoring passenger service on the West Trenton Line, mention was made about putting the crossings back across the Lehigh Line.

It was said that the NS told NJT to build a fly-over instead.

It looks like CSX is starting construction on the second track from Port Reading Junction to Sunnymeade Road.

Several sidings are to be built from PR Jct. to West Trenton.

Joe

Using the old Flemington branch is out of the question. Maybe someone could check the tax maps, but I'm pretty sure that all of the CNJ row has been sold off to the adjoining landowners.

And look at the figures for each "solution". Of course they will go with the cheapest one, which is buses.

pierrerabbit wrote:Using the old Flemington branch is out of the question. Maybe someone could check the tax maps, but I'm pretty sure that all of the CNJ row has been sold off to the adjoining landowners.

And look at the figures for each "solution". Of course they will go with the cheapest one, which is buses.

Of course they will go with busses - this proposal, and the options, sound veeeeeeeeeeery familiar to MOM.....and we all know how that is going....

amtrakowitz wrote:(I do wonder why there is no Hillside station, though.)

Technically, there IS a station at Hillside

Would Newark Penn be able to handle "compass South" diesel expansion without an upgrade to the Waterfront Connection? Because Newark Penn was not at all designed, as most poeple here know, to be the terminal type station the RVL uses it as, and I'm curious if there is even any capacity for a notable expansion of that type of serivce.

sixty-six wrote:

amtrakowitz wrote:(I do wonder why there is no Hillside station, though.)

Technically, there IS a station at Hillside

Is there still a South Elizabeth station as well?

amtrakowitz wrote:

sixty-six wrote:

amtrakowitz wrote:(I do wonder why there is no Hillside station, though.)

Technically, there IS a station at Hillside

Is there still a South Elizabeth station as well?

Actually yes, the station is Elmora.

Now, if you are talking about PASSENGER station STOPS, thats a whole other story. Railroad wise, there are many more stations than published in the public timetable.

For anyone totally lost......Stations are designated locations along the railroad at specific mileposts. they may be current or former passenger stops or interlockings or just some random rock that someone decided to make important. But they are there. A passenger station is a station, but a station doesn't have to be a passenger station.

For example, Grant Ave (MP23.9) is a station on the Raritan Valley Line. It hasn't been a PASSENGER station STOP in a LONG time, but according to NJT, its still a station and an important location

I recall Grant Avenue being open on the RVL in the early 1980s. This was when trains were still going to Phillipsburg, too.

They call the station location "Elmora"? I thought that was the name of the interlocking. I have a PRR passenger timetable from 1966 that called it "South Elizabeth" (at the South Street bridge)—the New York-bound station platform survived until some time into the very late 80s.

Hawaiitiki wrote:Would Newark Penn be able to handle "compass South" diesel expansion without an upgrade to the Waterfront Connection? Because Newark Penn was not at all designed, as most poeple here know, to be the terminal type station the RVL uses it as, and I'm curious if there is even any capacity for a notable expansion of that type of serivce.

Honestly, you would probably need to upgrade that, plus Hunter, Aldene, and some amount of the ex-CNJ main as well depending upon how much service you were talking. Even assuming Newark could handle extra traffic in the current setup, the RVL has little in the way of express services and I can't see expansion of services to farther areas being especially successful if the passengers are subjected to a more or less local crawl the whole way. You probably couldn't squeeze more express runs without sacrificing reverse-direction runs unless you dropped in more track, which there is certainly room for.