New Rule 562 Cab Signals on The RRD Mainline

I am sorry I missed this thread earlier, but for those of you who know me I have been ranting about SEPTA's bullshit switch to transit style signaling ever since I learned of their itiotic plans several years ago.

It appears that everything I had warned people about is comming true, but hopefully some agitation by SEPTA T&E employees and riders can remedy the situation.

Here's some further insight into 562 operations for those of you who do not know. First, where 562 is used on the freight world, namely on the former Conrail Boston, Fort Wayne and Cleveland lines, the freight trains are NOT equipped with the ASC units due to the handling issues that the SEPTA engineerer mentioned. If a freight has to jam on its brakes to prevent a penalty, it could derail.

On Amtrak, between REA and A, the interlockings are so close that it doesn't even needs to be called Rule 562 except between BERGEN and A and all trains get a slow speed progression even with clear signals at A and moreover, if your riding behind someone you'll get the bad signals all the way from ERIE into A. The other Amtrak 562 section in between MILL RIVER and Providence, RI. Here Amtrak left all wayside distants standing as well as felt fully descriptive home signals. This not only allows for smoother operations in case of CSS failure, but also gives the engineers the most possible information.

Both MNRR and LIRR almost exclusively use 562 and they don't seem to have so many problems regarding train control and penalty applications, I am not sure what they would be doing different. NJT firmly believes in waysides and uses them along with 1 mile blocks.

SEPTA has made two bonehead moves. One, closing the towers and replacing them with an insufficient number of dispatchers and two, trying to run a railroad like a transit system with automatic routing and go, no-go signals.

If we can get the word out to the riders and get them to bitch, we can get SEPTA to install a proper 562 system

whovian wrote:Man, is that project at Fort Washington taking forever. Those guys must be paid by the hour. Rome probably was built faster.

Remember that the original schedule was supposed to be tighter, but SEPTA advanced the installation of the vault for the underpass by a coupla years when the Sandy Run bridge (just south of the station) washed out. To their credit, SEPTA recognized that this was an opportunity to get that put in without having to shut down the railroad (it was already shut down), and avoid having to duplicate some of the effort in laying and aligning track. So yeah, the underpass has been sitting there unused, but I'm OK with it.

Jersey_Mike wrote:Here's some further insight into 562 operations for those of you who do not know. First, where 562 is used on the freight world, namely on the former Conrail Boston, Fort Wayne and Cleveland lines, the freight trains are NOT equipped with the ASC units due to the handling issues that the SEPTA engineerer mentioned. If a freight has to jam on its brakes to prevent a penalty, it could derail.

Except on CSX, some of the LSL-equipped ex-Conrail locomotives (non-computer screen) show up in our area with the LSL cut in as well as the cab signals. No big deal, except I caught a set of those on Q190 once. The Morrisville Line is Rule 562 territory, and while there is no speed enforcement associated with the cab signals over there (as was the case with the ex-PRR system), the LSL being cut in meant that any code change would have to be acknowledged quickly. Fortunately on that line, its easy to keep a train stretched, and then go right to supression when a code change comes up. And on a light intermodal train (relatively speaking), that wasn't so bad.

The RF&P Sub uses speed control with its cab signals, as does Amtrak, SEPTA, NJT, and MN. But there, they have waysides, which makes a difference, as they can be seen in advance.

I'm sure SEPTA's 562 system would work as well as Metro-North's system (it's almost the same thing, except for the autorouter...which is what tosses a wrench in the works). We've just got to get used to it (and the Silverliners need on-board equipment that won't go to penalty in 6 seconds regardless of braking effort).

Jersey Mike: Yes, LIRR does have a lot of 562 territory. They have been gradually increasing that over the years. However they still have wayside signals on the busiest part of the 4-track main-line between Jamaica and Penn Station. You are correct that they do not seem to have as much of a problem as SEPTA is having. LIRR has had this system for many years and their engineers are used to it. And most of their lines run on fairly flat terrain, except on the north shore where it is very hilly. They do have big slip-slide problems everywhere in the Fall season though.

But a couple of major points about LIRR's system (if I understand correctly/If I'm wrong, anyone who knows better, please correct me)

1- LIRR seems to get the "code-drop" some distance before the actual signal location; maybe a quarter mile or so.

2- I believe they get two chances to comply before a penalty application. Riding up front you can hear the the audible warning device sound in the cab, and if the engineer fails to slow down, then it sounds again, before a penalty application. At least that's how it appears to work.

3- They do not use anything like the autoroute system that SEPTA has installed. Dispatchers and block-operators (in the remaining few towers) still call the moves.

However when the deceleration happens, it is sudden, like the SEPTA personnel describe it. But again, I think LIRR is used to it; I've never heard their engineers complain about it. So, maybe SEPTA simply put in a badly designed system.

Re: signal aspects, Metro-North has completely converted to a simple go/no-go system. Double red is stop; flashing green is "cab-proceed". LIRR still uses all the normal aspects on their signals, though I understand that MTA would like to convert to a Metro-North type system, but LIRR has fought to retain the conventional signals .

Again, if I am mistaken about any of this, please correct me.

One important thing to note when comparing SEPTA and Amtrak's "562" territory to what LIRR and MNRR use, is that neither LIRR or MN are in the NORAC Operating committee, and do not follow the same operating rules as those railroads associated with NORAC. "562" is simply the NORAC rule number for "Movements in Territory Where Cab Signals are Used Without Fixed Automatic Block Signals". (just like rule 251 is signaled in one direction, rule 261 is signaled in both directions.)

Therefore there are various other NORAC rules which govern how trains are to operated in that territory, rules which might be different (and possibly more generous) on MNRR or LIRR.

Even though on Amtrak, between Rea and A (the 562 territory) the interlockings are close together, there still are many more cab signal "blocks" where the cab signals change inbetween signals. Between Rea and Hudson come to mind, where there may be three or four cab signal changes (usually more restricting as you go and head east) usually bringing you up to a stop signal at Swift or Hudson. Oddly enough, and ive asked a few people why it is, and have yet to get a real answer, the home signals between Rea and A do often act as automatics (with regard to the signal progression - clear, approach limited, approach medium, etc, etc), and don't necessarily only display "cab speed" (flashing green) Many can display anything from clear all the way down to Restricting, and of course, a stop signal. Even though techinally, all they would really need to show is "cab speed" and Stop signal. (and maybe stop and proceed). What are Septa's signals in 562 capable of displaying?

As someone mentioned earlier, with a failure of the system (usually the equipment on the train) there are only 3 ways to move the train, go restricted speed, have the dispatcher issue a Line 13 authorizing Rule 563, or the dispatcher will display a "C Light", which means Clear to the Next Interlocking (Rule 280a). The C light simply means that the track is clear up until the next interlocking's home signal. Trains must be prepared to stop at those signals, unless Approach Normal light is displayed - (amtrak doesn't used apprach Normal) The C light allows 79 mph.

A form D authorizing rule 563 can also be issued, but the max speed with that method is 70mph. They also must approach home signals prepared to stop.

Finally, Restricted Speed is required if the dispatcher doesn't want you to operate in either of those ways or you are unable to get a hold of him.

Does Septa use C lights on their signals or would they just use the Form D method authorizing 563 operation?

SEPTA's Rule 562 signals are capable of displaying only three aspects: Cab Speed, Restricting, and Stop Signal. They did not install "C" lights, so a Form D authorizing Rule 563 would be needed.

And when all is said and done, SEPTA plans to take away the Cab Speed aspect and convert to a subway-type aspect system with the following two aspects:

Lunar white = Proceed Cab
Flashing Lunar white = Diverging Cab

I would have said "similar to Metro-North", except that SEPTA did not install MN-type signals....nor does MN have the lunar white aspects, to my knowledge.

One important thing to note when comparing SEPTA and Amtrak's "562" territory to what LIRR and MNRR use

562 is a much easier way to say "Cab signals without fixed wayside signals" which is what I substitute it for. This isn't a rules examination so there's no reason to be that nit picky.

Oddly enough, and ive asked a few people why it is, and have yet to get a real answer, the home signals between Rea and A do often act as automatics (with regard to the signal progression - clear, approach limited, approach medium, etc, etc), and don't necessarily only display "cab speed" (flashing green) Many can display anything from clear all the way down to Restricting, and of course, a stop signal. Even though techinally, all they would really need to show is "cab speed" and Stop signal. (and maybe stop and proceed).

This is because "Cab Speed" is the new wayside signal primarily used for diverging over an HST but also used for the 60/80mph CSS code in the high density block system between REA and A. In fact, if you read Rule 281a, Cab Speed requires train to reduce speed to only 60mph if there is no cab speed code detected OR if the train is not equipped with cab signals. Cab Speed cannot be used in place of any aspect less restrictive than itself due to how the rule is written. Also, Amtrak knows better than to cheap out and try to save money on signal LED's and still gives the engineers the full information. This also helps with possible CSS failures.

Trains must be prepared to stop at those signals, unless Approach Normal light is displayed - (amtrak doesn't used apprach Normal)

Amtrak almost did at the distant signals to the movable bridges in CT, but turned the heads. I think they realized that you don't need Approach Normal when wayside distants are supplied.

Does Septa use C lights on their signals or would they just use the Form D method authorizing 563 operation?

They are going to use Line 13 on a Form D.

1- LIRR seems to get the "code-drop" some distance before the actual signal location; maybe a quarter mile or so.

That is probably the CSS cuttout 1/4 mile before a absolute signal which causes the cab to drop before a STOP signal.

Re: signal aspects, Metro-North has completely converted to a simple go/no-go system. Double red is stop; flashing green is "cab-proceed". LIRR still uses all the normal aspects on their signals, though I understand that MTA would like to convert to a Metro-North type system, but LIRR has fought to retain the conventional signals .

MNR also has an absolute block ('C' signal) aspect (as does the LIRR) LIRR's is a flashing | (like NORAC Cab Speed, only differnt rule) and MNRR's is *R*/*G*/*R* alternating R and G flashing. I have seen that once, very christmasey.

Not trying to be nit-picky, just to mention and clarify that MNRR and LIRR don't use "562" under NORAC rules - what they use might be similar, it might even be an identical concept, but its not covered under NORAC operating rules, and they might have different other rules that determine how the train is to be operated or whatever, which might be much different than NORAC, and Septa and anyone else in NORAC with 562.

A cab speed signal is displayed, and a train has INOPERATIVE cab signals, and if the Cab speed signal is displayed without a signal indication (on an ADU or SDU or cab signal unit) speed is to be 60mph. However, if trains have operative cab signals, but they don't have the 60/80 indications on their cab speed units, the cab signals (in the cab) will drop to an approach medium, as that is the next restrictive indication from a clear. This will require a reduction to 45mph. Thats why NJT was in such a rush to replace the old ADU's (the digital red number displays) in the Arrow 3 MU's, they were being forced to slow down to 45mph for all the high speed turnouts, or whereever a Cab Speed signal was displayed. If no change in the cabs after passing the cab speed signal, then 60mph would be required (if cabs didnt change to approach medium when passing] edit.....i apparently in error erased this sentence last night...sorry for any confusion...

The signal Cab speed can be used for ANY cab signal (speed) shown in the cab. It is used for high speed turnouts, but there is no reason it couldn't be used to show an Approach in the cab (30mph) or a Restricting (20mph) in the cab. Often times, the train will past a cab speed siganl then get knocked down several times, (in each of the cab signal blocks) all the way down to a Restricting (20mph) before coming close to the next wayside, which probably shows a stop signal.