NEC Transportation Plan-Proposed Track Configuration (1998)

Most riders to BWI on Amtrak are originating at points well north of the MARC operating area. So yes, quite necessary. Although with the platforms there having been recently lengthened to accommodate a full train (what is it now, 10, 12 cars long?), it will be a while before we see any major work there too, I am sure....

Suburban Station wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote: I guess what really bothers me is bwi AND new carrollton...there's no need for both..

BWI is Baltimore's Metropark or RT128. New Carrollton is Washington's Metropark or RT128.

Adirondacker wrote: BWI is Baltimore's Metropark or RT128. New Carrollton is Washington's Metropark or RT128.

I think you're missing the point, these aren't supposed to be commuter trains. Amtrak dropped cornwells heights and makes no stops south of Philadelphia either..they've gutted the metropark schedule, they should do the same to atleast one of these stops. they are not necessary at all, hell, let's add newark, de and aberdeen, md...why not, then let's complain that trains have low average speeds. it's not amtrak's job to please every little suburban community. neitehr of these stops is necessary, that word means they're needed, they are not. bwi may be desirable, but it's not needed, the corridor would be fine without it. ..and the corridor would probably benefit without ncr. you know what would help? a stop in alexandria that didn't require a power change. people in ncr can drive up the parkway to bwi and catch a train there.

Suburban Station wrote:I think you're missing the point, these aren't supposed to be commuter trains.

But the trains do need to be accessible to potential passengers.

An awful lot of (potential) AMTRAK passengers, especially the ones with the money to pay AMTRAK fares, live in suburban communities that are only accessible by car. If you want to attract them, you need stations that are easy to drive to and have adequate parking. That lets out most or all of the city-center stations. Just to speak of the stations I have driven to/past: NYP is, of course, impossible, and 30th St. Philadelphia is only marginally better. Newark (NJ) and Trenton can be driven to, if you know the way, but lack adequate parking. By comparison, Metropark, NJ and Stamford, CT are right on turnpikes and have lots of parking. I believe the same is true for BWI and New Carrollton.

Even if you live close to a commuter line, you might prefer to drive to the AMTRAK station. I live right on a commuter rail line, and have in fact gotten to and from AMTRAK NEC trains (NYP) using commuter rail. But it's enough of a pain that I would not expect any significant number of AMTRAK passengers to do it.

Suburban Station wrote:

Adirondacker wrote: BWI is Baltimore's Metropark or RT128. New Carrollton is Washington's Metropark or RT128.

I think you're missing the point, these aren't supposed to be commuter trains. Amtrak dropped cornwells heights and makes no stops south of Philadelphia either..they've gutted the metropark schedule, they should do the same to atleast one of these stops. they are not necessary at all, hell, let's add newark, de and aberdeen, md...why not, then let's complain that trains have low average speeds. it's not amtrak's job to please every little suburban community. neitehr of these stops is necessary, that word means they're needed, they are not. bwi may be desirable, but it's not needed, the corridor would be fine without it. ..and the corridor would probably benefit without ncr. you know what would help? a stop in alexandria that didn't require a power change. people in ncr can drive up the parkway to bwi and catch a train there.

While I understand your statement about premium trains stopping at "smaller" stations, you can not ignore the demographic. First of all, MetroPark/Iselin is far from gutted. In fact, EVERY corridor only train (including the Acela trains) stops there on the weekend. During the weekday, Metropark has close the same number of trains as it did 20 years ago (an average of one per hour.)

As for Cornwells Heights, there are still two trains each direction every weekday.

Additionally, Amtrak recently ADDED train service to Newark, Delaware and Aberdeen, Maryland with Aberdeen under consideration for additional service

This is because the demand is there and actually increasing.

Amtrak is a service and I think you miss the point of "service." You can argue any station is not "needed." Hell, a person traveling from Providence to Philadelphia could argue New York is not needed. I can argue that Boston, Back Bay and Boston, South Station are right around the corner from each other, so BBY isn't needed.
But the stations are needed because their outlying locations allow for easy access therefore making them desirable to the passengers, which increases ridership.

Still, I would love to see at least one Acela run like an old Metroliner-city to city.

amm in ny wrote: An awful lot of (potential) AMTRAK passengers, especially the ones with the money to pay AMTRAK fares, live in suburban communities that are only accessible by car. If you want to attract them, you need stations that are easy to drive to and have adequate parking. That lets out most or all of the city-center stations. Just to speak of the stations I have driven to/past: NYP is, of course, impossible, and 30th St. Philadelphia is only marginally better. Newark (NJ) and Trenton can be driven to, if you know the way, but lack adequate parking. By comparison, Metropark, NJ and Stamford, CT are right on turnpikes and have lots of parking. I believe the same is true for BWI and New Carrollton.

Even if you live close to a commuter line, you might prefer to drive to the AMTRAK station. I live right on a commuter rail line, and have in fact gotten to and from AMTRAK NEC trains (NYP) using commuter rail. But it's enough of a pain that I would not expect any significant number of AMTRAK passengers to do it.

you mean as opposed to the poor people buying expensive condos in city centers? fwiw, baltimore has plenty of room for a garage. the fact is, stations like philadelphia and ny are two way generators...people don't just go from them, they also go to them. the thing is that amtrak doesn't need all these stops...they said the same about metropark, they rebuilt it without center island platforms, reduced the number of trains stopping there, and yet amtrak is doing just fine. in fact, amtrak still artificially reduces demand with high prices because there's too much demand for philadelphia-ny. again, i don't have a problem with one or the other, but both are not necessary. how can yu have a high speed railroad with all these stops? and if marc is going to increase service, then I think you can have connectig services.

ThirdRail7 wrote: While I understand your statement about premium trains stopping at "smaller" stations, you can not ignore the demographic. First of all, MetroPark/Iselin is far from gutted. In fact, EVERY corridor only train (including the Acela trains) stops there on the weekend. During the weekday, Metropark has close the same number of trains as it did 20 years ago (an average of one per hour.)

and that's way more than necessary. they did gut rush hour schedules, and those trains are fine.

ThirdRail7 wrote: As for Cornwells Heights, there are still two trains each direction every weekday.

which is far less than it used to be, many people shifted to njt and drive to hamilton. that's the point, all trains don't need to make these stops.

ThirdRail7 wrote: Additionally, Amtrak recently ADDED train service to Newark, Delaware and Aberdeen, Maryland with Aberdeen under consideration for additional service

mostly because of political pressure, with those stops, you're really cutting into the trip times...and why not stop, they didn't build enough capacity to handle marc trains anyway, so they added time to the regional schedule because you'd always get stuck behind a marc local anyway

ThirdRail7 wrote:Amtrak is a service and I think you miss the point of "service." You can argue any station is not "needed." Hell, a person traveling from Providence to Philadelphia could argue New York is not needed. I can argue that Boston, Back Bay and Boston, South Station are right around the corner from each other, so BBY isn't needed. But the stations are needed because their outlying locations allow for easy access therefore making them desirable to the passengers, which increases ridership.

this is just silly. for you, service is a million stops in suburbs, for me, it's fast, frequent service between large cities. both are services, they're just different. I don't think anyone is arguing that new york should be skipped but trains could skip providence.

ThirdRail7 wrote: Still, I would love to see at least one Acela run like an old Metroliner-city to city.

acela trains should never stop at ncr, abe, nrk, or cornwells,,,I suppose if Amtrak were running ten car acelas and had lower acela prices they could offer a better breadth of service...as it is, the acela is only accessible to the superrich and those with expense accounts leaving them to price regionals like premium trains yet stop at podunk towns like newark, de (and the only reason philly ridership is only 3.8 million at 30th is the highest yields in the entire system depress ridership)..still, the assumption that the service is dependent on a lot of suburban stops isn't true, and is becoming less true by the year. the poor inner city people argument is becoming less true every year.

I'm probably one of the few folks who regularly used to take the train to Metropark from DC. And I usually took MARC. It was cheaper. But if I was in a hurry, I definitely opted for Amtrak. And as others have pointed out, MARC doesn't run nearly the same hours as Amtrak. Amtrak definitely has a place here.

But more importantly, I'd hazard a guess that many folks who do take Amtrak to/from BWI do so for one of three reasons.
1) They're not aware of other options.
2) They don't want to "slum it" on commuter trains
3) They're traveling from locations further than CD or Baltimore. I know when I flew to Puerto Rico, it was far cheaper to fly back to BWI and take the train to NY than it was to fly into upstate NY. That's an extreme case, but not the only one.
4) Ok, I lied, 4 not 3 reasons, access to the car rental agencies.

As the 16th most popular station, I can't see eliminating BWI.

Oh one more thought to is that we should be encouraging rail/plane interaction as much as possible.

Oh one more thing.

There's a huge difference between stopping at Metro-Park and BWI. One has an airport (and the associated infrastructure like ample parking and rental car support). Metro-Park has... a parking garage. It's basically a glorified commuter lot. BWI is much more.

Greg Moore wrote:I'm probably one of the few folks who regularly used to take the train to Metropark from DC. And I usually took MARC.

OK, I'll bite.

How do you take MARC (Maryland Area Regional Commuter) to Metropark, NJ?

AFAIK, MARC stops at Perryville, MD.

Suburban Station wrote: they said the same about metropark, they rebuilt it without center island platforms, reduced the number of trains stopping there, and yet amtrak is doing just fine.

Ok. You keep saying Amtrak reduced service at MetroPark. I can debate that and the rest of your opinions for literally years. However, this thread is spiraling off topic.

So, we'll just agree to disagree.

Suburban Station wrote:I think you're missing the point, these aren't supposed to be commuter trains. Amtrak dropped cornwells heights and makes no stops south of Philadelphia either..they've gutted the metropark schedule,

Four trains a day still serve Cornwells Heights (a Keystone (640) and a Regional (110) to NYP weekday morning rush) and a Keystone (655) and a Regional (193) towards Philly weekday evening rush). The Keystone stops are noted in the Keystone timetable; the Regional stops are noted in footnotes in the NEC timetable along with those trains that serve Aberdeen, Newark, New Brunswick and Princeton Junction.

As for Metropark, on weekdays almost all Washington-bound Acelas before 12 noon stop there, and most Boston and NYC-bound Acelas after 12 noon stop there. One or two Acela trips each way serve Trenton. Almost all Acelas still seem to serve Metropark on weekends, and of course most Regionals stop there daily. It's hardly gutted, and the only reduction appears to be northbound AM and southbound PM Acela trains no longer stopping there.

For the longest time, most of the weekday Acela trips alternated; those that stopped at Metropark skipped BWI and those that skipped Metropark stopped at BWI. And besides the parking garages at Metropark, there are plenty of office buildings within walking distance of the station that I am sure some of those Amtrak riders who board/disembark there are headed to/from as well.

Greg Moore wrote:I'm probably one of the few folks who regularly used to take the train to Metropark from DC. And I usually took MARC. It was cheaper. But if I was in a hurry, I definitely opted for Amtrak. And as others have pointed out, MARC doesn't run nearly the same hours as Amtrak. Amtrak definitely has a place here.

But more importantly, I'd hazard a guess that many folks who do take Amtrak to/from BWI do so for one of three reasons.
1) They're not aware of other options.
2) They don't want to "slum it" on commuter trains
3) They're traveling from locations further than CD or Baltimore. I know when I flew to Puerto Rico, it was far cheaper to fly back to BWI and take the train to NY than it was to fly into upstate NY. That's an extreme case, but not the only one.
4) Ok, I lied, 4 not 3 reasons, access to the car rental agencies.

As the 16th most popular station, I can't see eliminating BWI.

Oh one more thought to is that we should be encouraging rail/plane interaction as much as possible.

as noted, I can buy bwi OR ncr, but not both. just cuz someone is too lazy to drive to bwi doesn't mean the train should stop in every town. and I've never once found it cheaper to take the train to bwi and fly out of there than to fly out of philly ....particularly to puerto rico, philly has a lot of flights[again, maybe cheaper fares on the train might make a difference]. the train fare always makes the difference between cheaper and more expensive. sometimes it makes sense to take the train to newark but usually because of amtrak's continental deal. if the train went to jfk that would be great, as there are flights there you can't get in philly (or newark for that matter).fwi, there are car rental agencies at 30th as well as a connection to PHL...from upstate ny you could take megabus to 30th st, and catch septa to phl. anyway, the plan is to increase marc service which shoudl be that coordinated scheduling should be able to minimize the impact of having to transfer. an dunlike adding one stop like ncr, you're adding a bunch of stops that are closer to where people live without slowing the train down.
these trains are getting larded up with stops when they are supposed to be high speed trains (and really, amtrak's problem isn't that it doesn't go 160 mph with the acela, it's that there are too many slow areas and too many stops. if they stick with bwi, they should phase out ncr to all but a couple of trains a day like cornwells. reducing service quality to the larger markets to appease small markets doesn't necessarily make sense. I'd also point out to third rail that metropark requires a move to the outside tracks which is why service was reduced...in fact, there are people on here that complain about it, but I guess that can be debated in some world. odenton does well, maybe amtrak should stop there too, and what about perryville? good stop, let's put princeton jct back in, ewr and newark, while we're at it, let's add a stop for the philadelphia zoo. if you expand the acela sets so seats can be offered at regular prices, then maybe you can have two real classes of service...one with all the stops (regionals) and ones with few stops...this will become more important when capacity is added and the speeds increase on the inner tracks

edited to add:
the datafor phillydoes not include keystone ridership but it definitely confirms that bwi is a big stop but it also confirms that ncr isn't that important
bwi had 640k boards and deboards, ncr had 166k. not chump change, but not a crucial stop (it's less than half stamford and stamford is less than rt128, back bay, or metropark)
http://www.narprail.org/cms/images/uplo ... rs/NEC.pdf
it wouldn't have even cracked the top 20 in the state supported stations
http://www.narprail.org/cms/images/uplo ... ors/SS.pdf

so I retract my earlier tenet about bwi (though it was about center island platforms being necessary, which is more about how often trains stop there than whether they stop there at all...it's only really a problem at rush hour since off peak, using outside tracks shouldn't be a problem) and instead posit that plans should be made to bypass ncr more on most trains. one of the big benefits of the new middletown, pa station for that line isn't the airport itself, but the availability of cheap, long term parking that amtrak doesn't provide

amm in ny wrote:

Greg Moore wrote:I'm probably one of the few folks who regularly used to take the train to Metropark from DC. And I usually took MARC.

OK, I'll bite.

How do you take MARC (Maryland Area Regional Commuter) to Metropark, NJ?

AFAIK, MARC stops at Perryville, MD.

Err, my bad. I meant BWI. Oops

BWI, as a major hub of Southwest (they have their own terminal), attracts a ton of riders from DC metro area and other areas. When MARC is operating at cattle car conditions, it's not easy to get luggage on the train. MARC also gets the least priority (I remember watching a guy yelling at an Amtrak agent because he expected Amtrak to dispatch his 6 dollar ticket MARC train ahead of the Acela Express)

BWI also has a HUGE parking facility track side, with very reasonable rates. I live closer to Penn Station than BWI, but I will park at BWI (7 dollars a day vs 20).

BWI has a 24 hour world class rental car facility.

The Baltimore Light Rail (BLR) is not an option for those coming from the south or north. For those coming from the Baltimore, it is an option, but it's an option one must treed with caution.

A traveler on the BLR must pass through Cold Spring, North Ave, Lexington Market, and Cherry Hill. These are not nice areas, and def places that a traveler may think twice about going through.

Travelers from the south do have an option of taking the Metro to a bus, but that violates the golden rule of transit: Keep it Simple.