My ideas for new LIRR routes

That is unless LIRR were to provide them with a one seat ride, something that the RR did do at one time and is very easy to do again.

why do you think my SSP line won't attract people out of their cars and onto the line? After all, the Babylon line has limited parking.

Some of the limiter parking on the Babylon line is eaisly free'd up with the CRR ROW being rebuilt. also. I live along the line and there is really not much more space to put the parking, its only usefull withen a limited distance of the station, anything more us useless. to the average person.
Tho here at Valley Stream, people do park a good 6+ Blocks away from the station. a decent leinght of the "Origional ROW" was paved for parking also.(been that way B4 i was born) and its relitivy the same thing further east along the line. in some places people baught the old row Over limiting places for parking also,

Parking issues would be solved by a margen if more 1xcars would be replaced by 4+pple per car. the more people carpool the less parking problems there would be.
>>Reserve closest spots to the persons who carpool<< see how many lazy asses will carpool or walk.

If limited parking is the problem, then other options should be looked at. Things like improving LIB/ST service and adding shuttle buses to train stations(like the 2 Merrick Shuttles). Construction of an entirely new line so close to the Babylon wont work until we have passed NYC status, which wont happen.

Also, the reason most people on LI drive is b/c most people who live in nassau/suffolk counties also work is nassau/suffolk counties.

True. But if you adjust the LIRR's habits to where they do serve the LI-bound commuter, then you will see the market expand to the point to which people will need these lines built. They should have the Babylon run the same level of service in the reverse peak than they do in the peak. Your looking at one idea but it's all a part of a puzzle.

Here's an exapmle:

Robert moses built the Triboro bridge in 1939. When it opened, it was expected to serve X amount of cars. It served 3 times that. So he opened the Whitestone Bridge. Now there where twice as many cars as before and both bridges we're jammed. Then he opened the Throgs Neck. Now he had 3 bridges operating way beyond capacity.


The LIRR is vastly underused. These ideas form an web of rail that is intended to inhance the services and potnetial of the railroad as a whole. Let's say for a minute you build the Cross-Island line (yours or mine). Now a huge group of commuters can access the Railroad to go places in a way they couldn't go before. Now all the lines are swamped. So you build my east-west lines to handle the load. It's the same thing with the SAS in Manhattan. Soon, both lines will be packed to the max.

The Babylon line runs no where near anything like a subway. With upgrades, the line can probably run FAR more trains than it does now. And the only scenario in which a SSP line would be needed is, like I said before, we pass NYC status, and that will most likely never happen.

Look, you're new to all the boards, so you may not have seen this before. I have an entire transit company set up for Long Island using rail, road, and water transportation.

www.freewebs.com/islandtransitli

I'm confident that my system can provide sufficient service to serve future long island.

That's a lot of train lines....

But here's the thing: You brought up the point of the Babylon line running NYC subway style service. This would be extremely diffcult to do for a few reasons:

-LIRR trains need better spacing. I don't think the type of headways of the subway are achieveable on the LIRR (I'm not sure, correct me if I'm wrong)

-Far Rockaway and Long Beach trains would most likely have to have drastic service increases as well.

-Where are you gonig to fit all these peoples cars?

-If you run the Babylon line at those frequecies, the Montauk line (which I'm sure will have it's service swell to a flood as well) will have no place to go. Unless of course you build the SSP line.

-The communties along the Babylon would have a fit over all the traffic pouring into their communties from the increased service. And no one is gonna want to take the bus.

-The main and NY24 lines will be jammed beyond belief with all the new commuters, even with 4 tracks on the main. The NYC commuters in Levittown, Uniondale, and Elmont will need another line to use.

-Let's say we combine our two systems. Now you have even MORE trains on the Babylon, Main and NY24 routes. What's going to alieve them? The SSP line.

-With the better serivce, and grwoing city job base, the LIRR might attract more NYC commuters. That will most certainly put a squeeze on the lines.

-While LI may population wise be growing slowly, the number of cars and susbeqeuntly the number of trips on Long Island will grow substansially. That's something to consider in terms of the future LIRR market

-The better transit will play a key role in growing and expanding Long Island. This is yet more potential LIRR customers.

How do you answer all these questions?

"-LIRR trains need better spacing. I don't think the type of headways of the subway are achieveable on the LIRR (I'm not sure, correct me if I'm wrong) "

I wasn't saying we should do that. I was saying that if need be, with a few upgrades, the Babylon line MIGHT be able to run close to NYC subway headways.


"-Where are you gonig to fit all these peoples cars?"

Why is it that everybody has to drive to the train station? Again, just improve service existing bus routes that go to the train stations and add new shuttle bus routes for other stations.



"-If you run the Babylon line at those frequecies, the Montauk line (which I'm sure will have it's service swell to a flood as well) will have no place to go. Unless of course you build the SSP line. "

Actually, under my plan, Montauk trains would be able to use 3 routes. The Babylon, the central, and the main. And obviously making space for those montauk trains would be a part of the plan.


"-The communties along the Babylon would have a fit over all the traffic pouring into their communties from the increased service. And no one is gonna want to take the bus. "

Babylon line wouldn't be the only line with increased service. So would the main(even though it's already kinda maxed out) and the central. So there wont be a flood of people just to the Babylon line like with Ronkonkoma. The reason Ronkonkoma happened is b/c it was the only one to have an improvement. Under my plan, all the lines have the improvements, so it's all evenly spread out.

And how can you say no one will want to take the bus? Give me one good reason. Run the buses with decent headways and you'll get people off the streets.


"The main and NY24 lines will be jammed beyond belief with all the new commuters, even with 4 tracks on the main. The NYC commuters in Levittown, Uniondale, and Elmont will need another line to use. "

You're expecting WAY too much out of Long Island. I'm sorry, but it just wont happen. There just wont be that many people.


"-Let's say we combine our two systems. Now you have even MORE trains on the Babylon, Main and NY24 routes. What's going to alieve them? The SSP line. "

They wont need relief b/c even under the most hypothetical scenario, having those 3 lines will be sufficient. The main has lasted this long with only 1 track east of Farmingdale, and only 2 tracks between Farmingdale and Floral Park. Add the 3rd trak, and if need be, put a 3rd track on to the central if it is built. Hell, if things get really bad, throw on a 3rd track for the Babylon too. It'll still be cheaper than the SSP line.


"-With the better serivce, and grwoing city job base, the LIRR might attract more NYC commuters."

With the exception of downtown manhattan and downtown brooklyn, I think NYC is squeezing in about as many commuters as possible. The majority of LI(nassau/suffolk) residents remain to work in nassau/suffolk and it will remain the same, possibly with even more working on the island.

This island has gone from nothing, to farmland, to resorts, to suburbia, and is slowly progressing towards urban center. It's only direction is to continue towards urban center. By that though, I mean expansion of current commercial areas, such as Uniondale, Jericho, and Hauppauge. Those are the markets transportation needs to serve.


"-The better transit will play a key role in growing and expanding Long Island. This is yet more potential LIRR customers. "

A better transit plan does not include new lines for NYC bound travel. LI's future is within nassau and suffolk counties. That is the future my plan serves.

NIMBYkiller wrote:"-LIRR trains need better spacing. I don't think the type of headways of the subway are achieveable on the LIRR (I'm not sure, correct me if I'm wrong) "

I wasn't saying we should do that. I was saying that if need be, with a few upgrades, the Babylon line MIGHT be able to run close to NYC subway headways.

If you increase headways on the Babylon to every 15 minutes, then figure a Montuak train would come every 15 minutes also, then that's a train every 7.5 minutes. A SSP line would cut that to 10. Plus, with the plan to have the Far Rockaway and Long Beach lines serve new SE Queens markets, that's a huge strain on the South Shore ROW. The SSP would relieve that.


"-Where are you gonig to fit all these peoples cars?"

Why is it that everybody has to drive to the train station? Again, just improve service existing bus routes that go to the train stations and add new shuttle bus routes for other stations.

Because this is Long Island. People don't want to use the bus. Yes, better bus service would help bring more people in. But the majority want to drive to the station


"-If you run the Babylon line at those frequecies, the Montauk line (which I'm sure will have it's service swell to a flood as well) will have no place to go. Unless of course you build the SSP line. "

Actually, under my plan, Montauk trains would be able to use 3 routes. The Babylon, the central, and the main. And obviously making space for those montauk trains would be a part of the plan.

And where would the Ronkonkoma Go? The Ronkonkoma is gonna attract equal if not more people as the Montauk. The Main and Central will have their hands tied.

"-The communties along the Babylon would have a fit over all the traffic pouring into their communties from the increased service. And no one is gonna want to take the bus. "

Babylon line wouldn't be the only line with increased service. So would the main(even though it's already kinda maxed out) and the central. So there wont be a flood of people just to the Babylon line like with Ronkonkoma. The reason Ronkonkoma happened is b/c it was the only one to have an improvement. Under my plan, all the lines have the improvements, so it's all evenly spread out.

You right. The main IS maxed out. The Central will be NO better. Aren't you also forgetting that many NYers will come eastward for jobs too? The Hempstead will need a lot of room on that line.


And how can you say no one will want to take the bus? Give me one good reason. Run the buses with decent headways and you'll get people off the streets.

Good reason: Suburanites HATE buses


"The main and NY24 lines will be jammed beyond belief with all the new commuters, even with 4 tracks on the main. The NYC commuters in Levittown, Uniondale, and Elmont will need another line to use. "

You're expecting WAY too much out of Long Island. I'm sorry, but it just wont happen. There just wont be that many people.

The current popualtion set up would fill up these lines. Never mind new growth. Keep in mind: Queens has about 500,000 less people that LI has a whole, but if you we're to look at thier train capcity, they would run the space of just as many MU sets on the LIRR on ONE line.

"-Let's say we combine our two systems. Now you have even MORE trains on the Babylon, Main and NY24 routes. What's going to alieve them? The SSP line. "

They wont need relief b/c even under the most hypothetical scenario, having those 3 lines will be sufficient. The main has lasted this long with only 1 track east of Farmingdale, and only 2 tracks between Farmingdale and Floral Park. Add the 3rd trak, and if need be, put a 3rd track on to the central if it is built. Hell, if things get really bad, throw on a 3rd track for the Babylon too. It'll still be cheaper than the SSP line.

I understand where you're going with this but theirs massive problems: The main runs through dense areas, the NIMBY element will be alive and kicking. You'll never get people to agree with the central being 3+ tracks. As for the Babylon line, have you ridden the babylon line, how are you gonna pull the third track off? Those projects alone woudl be mroe tan double the cost of a whole new line.


"-With the better serivce, and grwoing city job base, the LIRR might attract more NYC commuters."

With the exception of downtown manhattan and downtown brooklyn, I think NYC is squeezing in about as many commuters as possible. The majority of LI(nassau/suffolk) residents remain to work in nassau/suffolk and it will remain the same, possibly with even more working on the island.

This plan is geared towards the Long Island commuter. Plus, NYC has always been able to squeeze in more and will continue to do so in the future.

This island has gone from nothing, to farmland, to resorts, to suburbia, and is slowly progressing towards urban center. It's only direction is to continue towards urban center. By that though, I mean expansion of current commercial areas, such as Uniondale, Jericho, and Hauppauge. Those are the markets transportation needs to serve.

And my lines pass directly through those areas. And once those neighborhoods fill up, what makes you think Babylon, Huntington, Great Neck and others would be the next urban centers?

"-The better transit will play a key role in growing and expanding Long Island. This is yet more potential LIRR customers. "

A better transit plan does not include new lines for NYC bound travel. LI's future is within nassau and suffolk counties. That is the future my plan serves.

Both our plans serve that future. And theirs nothing here saying your transit lines can't run on my lines either. Hell, that would be one heck of a LIRR system !

This thread needs a boost.

bump.

bump