Mayor, NICTD to seek funds for South Shore study (M City)

I think the cheapest option would probably be this:

-Close 11th St as a station
-Convert the track to a full ballast and tie track rather than trolley rail.
-Fence in the track (in the middle of the street)
-Gate all grade crossings
-Widen both sides of the street to accommodate a vehicular travel lane. (no parking lane)

Amtrak7 wrote:I think the cheapest option would probably be this:

-Close 11th St as a station
-Convert the track to a full ballast and tie track rather than trolley rail.
-Fence in the track (in the middle of the street)
-Gate all grade crossings
-Widen both sides of the street to accommodate a vehicular travel lane. (no parking lane)

Cheapest? Probably ... although it would be a lot of work (and would involve utility relocation to make the "street" wide enough for a driving lane on either side of the track).

Viable? No. Such a plan would not allow for a future 2nd track through town and would turn a major cross street into two alleys with no parking.

Closing the 11th Street station seems a bad idea since it's located near the downtown area, discount shopping mall, etc., while Carroll Ave. (shops) is in a secluded residential area that's frankly had to find, at least I always find myself driving around aimlessly when I try to find it. The plan may be cheap, although even that is up for question since nothing would be gained by it and a lot lost. I don't think the residents of Michigan City would care for it at all.

CHTT1 wrote:Closing the 11th Street station seems a bad idea since it's located near the downtown area, discount shopping mall, etc., while Carroll Ave. (shops) is in a secluded residential area that's frankly had to find, at least I always find myself driving around aimlessly when I try to find it. The plan may be cheap, although even that is up for question since nothing would be gained by it and a lot lost. I don't think the residents of Michigan City would care for it at all.

The people east of Michigan City should thank the original builders for placing the Shops on the east side of Michigan City instead of the west. If Shops were on the west side of town (Power-Sheridan or where Lincoln Yard is) I suspect that the South Shore would have abandoned street running and South Bend years ago. NICTD could build a commuter lot as large as they need out at the end of 10th St (and guard it well to make sure that the occasional prison escapee doesn't use it as an easy target to steal get away cars).

Having the ridership of Michigan City (11th St and Shops) to support the route through town as well as the need to get trains to CP 35.2 and west for the majority of passengers has kept those tracks in business.

The real plan does not consider closing 11th St station ... they want to expand it. The only reason why an 11th St station would not exist in the future is if the line is rerouted north (lakefront) or south (CSX).

I don't want to put the South Bend connection in jeopardy (and it won't be as long as the Shops are at Carroll Ave) but I wonder where the best location for a station would be for the people who actually use it. How many people use 11th St and walk to their destination? If the majority of passengers there ride public transportation or drive, would they be equally served by a station further west (perhaps even west of Amtrak)? Will combining 11th St and Carroll Ave at a new 11th St location increase traffic TO downtown businesses (including the outlet mall) or just increase traffic PAST downtown businesses? Will it add customers or just congestion?

The Northern variations in the study (6 ways of going north are listed with one way of going south along CSX and one way of following 11th St). All put the station closer to the lakefront (and Amtrak's station) and probably create a better situation for commuters turning off US 12 (or a relocated US 12). But they all call for a "level crossing" of Trail Creek (either by NICTD or Amtrak/relocated US 12). Can they close the marina to tall ships?

The first time finding Carroll Ave can be hard ... better signage would help. Finding 11th St is only slightly better (follow US 421 until you see tracks with catenary - or 11th St from Michigan Ave until you see the bus shelter. Most Michigan City passengers are finding Carroll Ave easily enough ... and are filling the main parking lot and the overflow lot. Just turn north at the traffic light at McDonalds. The water tower is another big landmark. Getting there "the back way" is more complicated but most of the traffic comes off of Michigan via Carroll.

justalurker66 wrote:The Northern variations in the study (6 ways of going north are listed with one way of going south along CSX and one way of following 11th St). All put the station closer to the lakefront (and Amtrak's station) and probably create a better situation for commuters turning off US 12 (or a relocated US 12). But they all call for a "level crossing" of Trail Creek (either by NICTD or Amtrak/relocated US 12). Can they close the marina to tall ships?

I don't see that happening. That requires a great deal of negotiations with the Coast Guard, and as long as they consider Trail Creek a "navigable waterway" any bridges along the route have to be moveable for large boats.

The first public meeting of the study was held tonight. A decent turnout with the plans posted at the project website ( http://emichigancity.com/cityhall/depar ... -analysis/ ) as well as some new information detailing how each of the possible routes would affect the city. The new information should be on the city in about a week or so.

Each of the plans seems to have its own drawbacks. One of them (#4) calls for a ground level bridge over Trail Creek with a moveable bridge (two of the other ground level Trail Creek plans suggested a 12ft bridge, which would require coast guard permission).

I see the elevated plan as a non-starter ... 45 ft above the boats but also 30-45 ft above city hall. It would provide grade separation for Amtrak but putting the station 30-45 ft in the air? (It needs to be that high as the station cannot be built on a grade - it must be level.)

The CSX plan to the south suggested moving the shops east of Michigan City. I suppose they could separate the car yard from the repair shops and use Carroll Ave for repair work and store the cars in a new car yard only shops. The CSX corridor would become a three track line with an interlocking west of Michigan Ave. The CSX Michigan Ave bridge would become a three track and a separate one track bridge would carry a new connection curving northeast to Shops for SouthShore Freight use. The new double track NICTD line would run through the Karwick Rd Nature Park (which would go away) and under the CSX line.

Most of the ground level north plans do not have a diamond with Amtrak. They have a flat interlocking where Amtrak trains theoretically could be diverted on to NICTD rails.

The presenters did note that they have held preliminary discussions with CSX, Amtrak, the Coast Guard, INDOT and other stakeholders about the various plans and all are willing to work with NICTD. It sounded like the Coast Guard was the least willing party ... which pretty much kills several of the alignments if a waiver isn't received.

I look forward to the more detailed presentation boards being posted. The 11th St corridor remains my favorite ... although the proposed station has crept further west.

One alternative I can see that was not studied: orulz alternative 1 which would move the place where Amtrak and South Shore cross west of town and grade separate it. Everything is at grade by the station.

1. Relocate US12 about 50 feet to the south/east. From what I can see this would involve acquisition of about 6 properties with structures on them and several more vacant ones.
2. Move South Shore onto the former US12 right-of-way
3. Build a new alignment for Amtrak that bridges over US12 and South Shore near the intersection of US12 and Sheridan Ave.
4. Use alternative 3 or 3a (NKP) so South Shore does not have to cross Trail Creek at all.
5. Amtrak retains its existing swing bridge.

The study is accepting public comments ... send them your idea. The worst they can do is shoot it down.

I don't see a plan that moves Amtrak or CSX more than to the side within their existing corridor being selected ... The "Lake Shore Drive" plan (option 7) tightens Amtrak's curve north of Lighthouse Place and pushes Amtrak to an alignment through the police station and city hall ... but it doesn't use the current bridge.

Putting NICTD on 3 or 3A removes the reason for a swing bridge. I would hope that once the marina is gone the Coast Guard would not require 45ft clearance. (The plans for the marina area in 3 and 3A is the new station - with low bridges over Trail Creek to connect to the Blue Chip.)

Sorry, I'm having trouble following this.

First of all, it's a done deal they are removing the tracks from 11th street right? And the debate is where to put the NICTD tracks/station? Also, why is Amtrak getting pulled into this?

trainmaster611 wrote:Sorry, I'm having trouble following this.

First of all, it's a done deal they are removing the tracks from 11th street right? And the debate is where to put the NICTD tracks/station? Also, why is Amtrak getting pulled into this?

None of the proposals suggest a "do nothing" approach (although one will be introduced as a baseline for comparison in the study). Yes, the tracks are coming out of the street - the study is to figure out where out of the street they should go.

All of the options cross the Amtrak tracks in a different way than they are crossed today. Options 1 & 2 create a double track NICTD line diamond. Options 3, 3A and 4 create an interlocking where Amtrak crosses NICTD tracks just west of the Amtrak station. Option 5 is grade separated, option 6 and 7 move US 12 to the north with option 7 bringing the Amtrak tracks south and creating a combined NICTD/Amtrak station. Only option 7 (of the "official" options) proposes moving the Amtrak line but all of them affect how the Amtrak line is crossed.

A combined station isn't a bad idea. It might raise potential ridership enough that Amtrak will stop more trains in Michigan City where people can make the connection to/from South Bend. It is worth at least taking a look at ... although the expense of buying out all of the businesses north of US 12 and relocating all of the city buildings and the issue of closing Trail Creek to taller ships likely makes it too difficult to pull off. But if they are going to be "reconfiguring" north Michigan City for NICTD it might as well be discussed as an option.

Plan #7 is an outstanding plan.

justalurker66 wrote:

trainmaster611 wrote:Sorry, I'm having trouble following this.

First of all, it's a done deal they are removing the tracks from 11th street right? And the debate is where to put the NICTD tracks/station? Also, why is Amtrak getting pulled into this?

None of the proposals suggest a "do nothing" approach (although one will be introduced as a baseline for comparison in the study). Yes, the tracks are coming out of the street - the study is to figure out where out of the street they should go.

All of the options cross the Amtrak tracks in a different way than they are crossed today. Options 1 & 2 create a double track NICTD line diamond. Options 3, 3A and 4 create an interlocking where Amtrak crosses NICTD tracks just west of the Amtrak station. Option 5 is grade separated, option 6 and 7 move US 12 to the north with option 7 bringing the Amtrak tracks south and creating a combined NICTD/Amtrak station. Only option 7 (of the "official" options) proposes moving the Amtrak line but all of them affect how the Amtrak line is crossed.

A combined station isn't a bad idea. It might raise potential ridership enough that Amtrak will stop more trains in Michigan City where people can make the connection to/from South Bend. It is worth at least taking a look at ... although the expense of buying out all of the businesses north of US 12 and relocating all of the city buildings and the issue of closing Trail Creek to taller ships likely makes it too difficult to pull off. But if they are going to be "reconfiguring" north Michigan City for NICTD it might as well be discussed as an option.

Yeah, I think I'm gonna need a map to have an idea of what you're talking about. I'm more concerned though about where the stations will be than the tracks.

The official project site is on the Michigan City city website:
http://emichigancity.com/cityhall/depar ... -analysis/

Check out the alignments PDF there ... with more detail to come as soon as the planners can get it posted. The general alignments are on the website now, what I hope are posted by next weekend is the boards that were displayed at the open house that detail each alignment including noting the impact north and south of each alignment to the community.

The presentation from the meeting last week has been posted to the project website - a 19 MB PDF. 44 pages of information!

Hmmmm ... the next mayor of Michigan City is against the 11th St option. (Who will be the next mayor? Take your pick - all three oppose 11th St.)

“We cannot allow that plan to proceed,” Republican candidate Keith Harris said in his opening statement. “Eliminating housing in that section of town is unacceptable.”

Independent candidate Nancy Moldenhauer said she is still in the “inquiry process” regarding which of the three realignment plans she supports, but said “dividing the city in half” would not be the optimal option.

Democratic candidate Ron Meer agreed, saying the 11th Street plan “should not even be looked at as an option,” instead suggesting the northern route could be considered.

http://thenewsdispatch.com/articles/201 ... 948429.txt