Railroad Forums 

  • Local/state police jurisdiction over railroads

  • Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.
It is currently Sun May 19, 2024 5:18 am

Local/state police jurisdiction over railroads

Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.

Moderator: MEC407

Local/state police jurisdiction over railroads

  by TPR37777
 
Note from the moderator: the following posts were moved to this thread from the Northampton Fire Department thread.
newpylong wrote:Just so we're on the same page, a local or state law enforcement officer has no legal authority to order a railroad to stop a train movement whatsoever. With that that said, any railroad that is contacted due to fires apparently being started by their equipment would be stupid not to abide by such a recommendation.

Here we go again, for like the millionth time just because railroads are regulated by the federal government it does not mean that the cab of a locomotive is a sanctuary free from local and state authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Maryl ... _collision

Notice that the Conrail engineer was charged and convicted in STATE court for violations of STATE law and served STATE prison time. Do you understand? State law applied while he was operating the locomotive. In Massachusetts and most other states, a reasonable order by a law enforcement officer must be obeyed whether interstate commerce is involved or not. I don't know why railroaders think that they are immune from enforcement actions of state or local law enforcement but they are not. If a train was leaking hazardous materials and the railroad dispatcher refused to stop it, they would be subject to prosecution, and the same applies for any train crew and in any similar situation, including trackside fires. There is nothing in federal law or case law which prevents law enforcement from taking action when public safety is at risk, whether it be an airline or a railroad or an interstate carrier of any sort.

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by KSmitty
 
TPR37777, If I may,
you do realize that most high school teachers won't accept Wikipedia as a source right? Trust me on that, I'm sure I've been there more recently than you. By citing Wikipedia as a source your argument becomes flimsy. I could go and delete that article or I could change it to say that the wacky tabacky helped save lives or that Ricky Lynn Gates was a hero who saved ten thousand lives all for kicks 'n giggles because I want to...anyone can mess with that, its really unreliable.

That said from the article-
...the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), which is charged with rail safety.
The article states that railroads report to the FRA a federal agency. Yes, they and their employees can be sued or charged by state and local agencies, Pan Am has, or had, several open suits over taxes with various towns in Mass over the past few years, but they are regulated by federal laws. Also, the article never states that local agency's ordered the train to stop, only that they prosecuted (for OUI and homicide, not for failing to obey local law enforcement by not stopping the train.) the crew. So, for your argument that local law can force a train to stop, it does nothing.

Next-Governments can charge anyone with crime, its how it works, but a local officer can't tell you to shut your car off while its in your driveway, you're on PRIVATE land. This is essentially the case of a local agency telling the railroad to stop a train. Besides that, federal law supersedes local law. As long as the train, and its crew are in compliance with federal law.

From an FRA published .pdf file discussing track speeds and standards-
...the safest train is one that maintains a steady speed, and locally established speed limits would result in hundreds of individual speed restrictions along a train’s route. This would not only cause train delays, but it could actually increase the chance of a derailment as every time a train must slow down and then increase speed, “buff” and “draft” forces (those generated when individual freight cars are compressed together or stretched out along a train’s length) are introduced. This increases the chance of derailment along with the potential risk of injury to train crews, the traveling public, and those living and working in surrounding communities.
Federal laws supersede local laws, plain and simple. As long as a train is federally compliant it cannot be ordered to stop by local law enforcement. Railroads are PRIVATE property, without probable cause or warrant law enforcement has no right to interfere with anything happening on railroad rights of way. And, if anything the FRA sees local interference with train movements as dangerous.

I have a hard time believing you when you present nothing more than a wiki article of little relevance to the topic, while two former railroaders are telling the board why you are wrong. You don't really bring much to the discussion except seemingly unsubstantiated arguments. Also, after reading through several of your more recent postings, you come across very aggressive and have given little to support any of your points (wiki article included). Reading your comments, I find myself unwilling to accept your opinions because of their seemingly aggressive nature. If I have read wrong, I apologize. However, seeing your banter with a lack of substantial evidence makes me suspect I have not misread.

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by TPR37777
 
Oh, KSmitty, you didn't like my source? Then search the topic (it is well documented), and even you will find the facts, or need I spoon feed you the FRA report? My argument? There is no argument genius, the Conrail engineer was charged and convicted under Maryland state law, it is a simple fact. Private property? Go and beat your wife and then start your car in your garage (private property), and see what happens when you refuse to shut it off and get out when law enforcement comes. Private property is not a meaningful determinant when one is discussing the limits of legal authority. You have been to high school more recently than me? Wow, you must be an expert on such matters then, huh? Have you ever arrested someone? The fact that the federal government regulates railroads has absolutely NOTHING to do with local and state law enforcement authority. The Commerce Clause limits the authority of states to regulate interstate commerce, but it does not limit the ability of law enforcement to protect the safety of the public PERIOD. I can not explain to you the complexities of the Commerce Clause and the respective authority of local and state governments over private entities because both I lack the desire and this is not the forum for such matters, out of my respect for MEC407. I don't know why it is such a threatening prospect for railroaders to believe that they are subject to state and local authority, but they are. Do you think a drunk airline pilot would be immune from lawful orders or arrest because airlines are regulated by the federal government? If a train is causing trackside fires and a police officer orders it to be stopped, and that order is refused, then the person or persons who refuse said order are subject to prosecution. If that fact somehow emasculates you then I am sorry, but it is a fact nonetheless.

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by Tim Mullins
 
Train crews and locomotives as well as other rolloing stock come under Federal Rules...A locomotive Engineer is licensed under CFR( code of Federal Regulation)240 sec.49...Locomotives fall under CFR 229 ...If I were to hit and kill someone who is trespassing on the row. or jumps in front of me, there are 2 reasons why the engineer does not leave the cab; (1)
you don't want to see what you just did and(2) I am under Federal Jurisdiction so a local officer can't come on the engine
and arrest me... He may come up and ask questions as part of the investigation if I allow it and it would be in my best interest...As far as taxes and the business end of the railroad thats another thing alltogether where they deal with local and state issue...Federal Laws!!...If the Police says stop and the dispatcher orders me to keep going, see ya! What it boils down to that if the P.D. or F.D says that we have a situation that could be dangerous, unsafe or lifethreatning and the train needs to stop,then by almeans the dispatcher or engineer should stop and inform the dispatcher and everyone in their right mind is going to do what is right...They can not say that these trains are causing problems all the time so they are not allowed to run through our city or town...Then you are interfering with commerce...I hope this helps somewhat ...Meanwhile...Back at the ranch!

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by TPR37777
 
For the Love of God a locomotive is not a sanctuary. What is it with you railroaders and your paranoia of law enforcement? I need your permission to enter the cab? Guess what, the locomotive is private property and the same restrictions apply to law enforcement access as with any private property. If you were intoxicated and ran over your conductor while switching cars in the yard I could enter that cab and lock you up ALL DAY LONG. Just because the federal government regulates an industry it does not mean that that industry becomes immune from all but federal authority. Do you understand the implications of the Conrail-Amtrak crash? The engineer was charged, convicted, and served time for violations of Maryland State Law. He was operating a locomotive at the time of the offense but was required to conform to Maryland law regardless. Do you get it? Rick Gates was not charged with any federal offenses, he was charged with violating state law at the time of the accident. If you don't believe me then research it for yourself, it is one of the most documented rail accidents of the century. Engineers have the right not to answer questions by local and state investigators, but so does everyone else in this country. Joe Citizen can be involved in a minor car accident and refuse to talk to me when I get there, it is his Constitutional right. Again, if a police officer issues a reasonable order on the basis of public safety that is refused, whether it be the dispatcher or the train master or the engineer, then that person is subject to prosecution under state law just like Rick Gates was.

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by KSmitty
 
TPR37777 wrote:1...There is no argument genius, the Conrail engineer was charged and convicted under Maryland state law, it is a simple fact.
2...Private property? Go and beat your wife and then start your car in your garage (private property), and see what happens when you refuse to shut it off and get out when law enforcement comes. Private property is not a meaningful determinant when one is discussing the limits of legal authority.
3...You have been to high school more recently than me?...The Commerce Clause limits the authority of states to regulate interstate commerce, but it does not limit the ability of law enforcement to protect the safety of the public PERIOD.
4...Do you think a drunk airline pilot would be immune from lawful orders or arrest because airlines are regulated by the federal government?
1-Right, I said that the government, local or state or federal, can prosecute or file suit with anyone in their jurisdiction. I did not say that a local officer can force a train to stop. The engineer was charged with OUI and murder. He was NOT charged with failing to obey a local officer telling him to stop the train.
2-As I said, "without probable cause" I'm pretty sure the call "my wife" (last time I checked, you can't be married at age 17...) makes to 911 for help warrants probable cause.
3-Yes I have, and to be honest, arguments made by several of my rather immature class mates are more well thought out than yours. I agree, that public safety comes first, but that a local officer can order a train to stop just for the hell of it, well thats wrong.
4-No, absolutely not. But a plane flying over Topeka Kansas with a drunk pilot cannot be ordered from 30000 feet to the ground by a local cop. Yes-he can be charged locally, but he cannot be ordered down by local authority.

Again, you insisted that a local or state officer of the law, can order a train to stop. This was the original point I responded to. The only fact you have presented to back this up is a wikipedia article that says that the crew of a train was charged after the fact with OUI and Murder with a Motor Vehicle.

Its nice to know you have respect for someone on this board, seems you continue to disregard the opinions of now 3 career railroad men. All without presenting facts.
Spoon feed me the FRA report on the Maryland crash, no I'm all set. But if you want to spoon feed me the Mass, NY, ME, and NH state laws where it specifically says that locals have the right to stop a train, sure please do. Personally I don't believe it, so I'm not going to go digging through law books looking for something that doesn't exist. For the point of your argument, you really should though. Sure crews and railroads can be charged by local powers, but local law cannot stop a train. Fact, said and done, unless you can present me with the actual laws, from each state Pan Am operates in (I don't see the relevance of Maryland law here on the Pan Am board) that says otherwise.

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by Tim Mullins
 
To answer your question....Yes you do need permission...it is a written and signed form called an HE-1 and signed by a company official...Yes the locomotive is privately owned but subject to Federal guidlines such as I mentioned before...Now, are you NORAC and CFR qualified with the railroad you work for?

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by Tim Mullins
 
Now that i got my hair cut, I can finish...Ricky Gates ran a red signal, FRA violation, in front of the Amtrak train thats
one violation. Subsequent investigation showed a substance when he was taken for a mandatory drug test as per federal law for running the signal and causing the accident....It's not a question of being paronoid or afraid of the police. There are guide lines that have to be followed....I don't know the situation that occured that brought this all up...Was there a recent accident?

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by TPR37777
 
Exactly at what point did you people transition the conversation to a police officer ordering the train to stop just for shits and giggles? I was and am talking about a REASONABLE order given by a police officer based on ARTICULABLE facts concerning a matter of PUBLIC SAFETY. I don't know why the matter is so threatening to you people. KSmitty I am sorry that you can not get beyond the Wiki link, and I further apologize that you lack the comprehension to understand the relevance of the case. Of course the collision did not involve a refusal of the engineer to stop his train for local authorities, who said it did? Are you alright? The fact of the matter is that railroad employees are bound by the confines of state law when they are performing their jobs, regardless of their being federally regulated. Local and state authorities can and do make lawful orders to railroads. Why does that strike such fear in your hearts? Picture a fire scene with hoses draped across the tracks and firefighters along the right of way, and the fire chief calls the railroad and ORDERS them to stop all movements through the area for the safety of his men. That "request" is a lawful order, and well within the authority given to fire chiefs by numerous statutes and voluminous case law. The railroad would not be extending a courtesy to the fire chief, they would be BOUND to follow his or her directive. If an engineer or a dispatcher said no because they were "federally regulated' and sent a train through they would be subject to prosecution, period. The locomotive is subject to federal regulations, but so are tractor trailers and ships and aircraft. If someone were to call the police and say they observed a railroad crew using narcotics in a vehicle in a parking lot and I responded to the call and found that the crew had already climbed aboard the locomotive do you think that I would just shrug my shoulders and go away? I would order them down off of the equipment and if they refused I would go up after them with or without permission. Why? Because even though it is private property there are exceptions to the warrant requirements of the Constitution, and the exigency of a given situation dictates my authority. With an identified complainant and probable cause to believe that the crew may be under the influence of drugs it would behoove me to investigate further before allowing them to endanger themselves and the public. Whether I had a signed HE-1 is irrelevant. If I found the crew to be in possession of narcotics as described by the witness that arrest would stand up in any court, even in Massachusetts.

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by KSmitty
 
TPR37777 wrote:...KSmitty I am sorry that you can not get beyond the Wiki link, and I further apologize that you lack the comprehension to understand the relevance of the case...If someone were to call the police and say they observed a railroad crew using narcotics in a vehicle in a parking lot and I responded to the call and found that the crew had already climbed aboard the locomotive do you think that I would just shrug my shoulders and go away? I would order them down off of the equipment and if they refused I would go up after them with or without permission. Why? Because even though it is private property there are exceptions to the warrant requirements of the Constitution...
I only mention the wiki link, again, because it is of little relevance, since it cites MARYLAND STATE, not really in Pan Am's service area. Also, again, obviously you can be charged in accordance with state law, I already said this. Pan Am is sued by local municipalities all the time for taxes and state DEP's for oil/fuel/chemical spills. I have agreed with you!

Yeah, exceptions, called probable cause, I got that and mentioned it before...

I don't so much have difficulty with what you are saying, so much as how you are saying it. You come across as very aggressive without presenting substantiated facts.

I understand public safety is the #1 matter that concerns fire departments, police departments and EMT's. It is, or should be, the main concern of railroads as well, along with the safety of their equipment, employees, and properties. The issue with your wikipedia article, back again to explain my problem with it, is that it does NOT state that any New England State has this power, and it does not state that local law enforcement can enter railroad property. I would find your points much more credible, if they were backed by links to appropriate laws from MA, ME, NY, or any state in which Pan Am operates.

Personally the stretch of authority expressed by most agencies post-9/11 is upsetting. You are implying that you as an officer have sway over what happens on private land. Even if you have this power, I find it mostly wrong to exercise it. Yes I realize law enforcement, as with most any public service, is hard, especially now. I mean no disrespect, to you or your profession (I assume you are infact an officer of the law?) but think that many agencies overstep their bounds. I also haven't seen where you can show me that you have the right to do this, third time asking for linky's to laws from relevant states.

Lastly, yes I am quite alright, never really been better infact. I am fully capable of processing information. I don't need help, so please don't see my respectfully disagreeing posts as probable cause to enter my private property... :D I have plenty of comprehension capacity, though its being taxed by you lack to post links to relevant State laws from areas Pan Am serves.

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by MEC407
 
Gents,

This is a good discussion we're having, but I'd ask everyone to remain civil and respectful, "disagree without being disagreeable," that sort of thing.

If we could wrap it up at some point, that would probably be a good idea, otherwise this thread is going to be one page about the Northampton FD and five pages about local police authority on/around railroads, and I might just have to split the topic. :wink:

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by TPR37777
 
I am sorry MEC407, I will wrap this up and leave it be.
KSmitty wrote:I only mention the wiki link, again, because it is of little relevance, since it cites MARYLAND STATE, not really in Pan Am's service area. Also, again, obviously you can be charged in accordance with state law, I already said this. Pan Am is sued by local municipalities all the time for taxes and state DEP's for oil/fuel/chemical spills. I have agreed with you!
You are missing the forest for the trees. Forget that I ever cited Wikipedia, Rick Gates was charged and convicted under Maryland law, that is a fact. It has nothing to do with actual Maryland law, the relevant precedent is that some posters were under the impression that railroad engineers were not subject to state laws since railroads are federally regulated, and that is simply false. Where state law applies (the locomotive cab where Rick Gates had been performing his duties), so can go the enforcers of those state laws (state and local law enforcement), under certain circumstances. Do you understand the point (and I am not giving you a shot here)? I never said local and state police can order around a railroad for simple amusement, only that state laws apply to railroads just like any other private industry.
KSmitty wrote:Yeah, exceptions, called probable cause, I got that and mentioned it before...
I can have all the probable cause in the world and still need a warrant, the exception I noted was EXIGENCY.

Re: Local/state police jurisdiction over railroads

  by MEC407
 
Now that we've got a separate thread for discussion of local/state police jurisdiction over railroads, please feel free to discuss it as much as you want. Thanks. :-)

Re: Local/state police jurisdiction over railroads

  by 3rdrail
 
Massachusetts General Law, Chapter 160, Section 231 wrote: Section 231. Whoever, having the management or control of a railroad train while being used for the common carriage of persons, is guilty of gross negligence in or in relation to the management or control thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not more than five thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than three years.

Last modified: March 17, 2010

Re: PAR gets an assist from Northampton (MA) fire dept.

  by newpylong
 
If you think locals have this kind of authority, then why did we never once move our trains when "ordered" by a local police officer to do so? We sat on our duffs and always waited for the railroad police to show up and kick them off our locomotives and property. Then we moved when the dispatcher told us to.

I take that back, the Mechanicville police arrested one train crew for idling about 8 years ago. The crew abided and went quietly. The police department ended up being fined for interfering in a federally governed industry.

If you want to give "orders" to a railroad I suggest applying to the B&M Railroad Police Department at Iron Horse Park. The chiefs name used to be John Holland, and probably still is. Until then, you can give all the orders you want but they're only going to respond to them because it's probably in their best interest, not out of necessity.


TPR37777 wrote:Local and state authorities can and do make lawful orders to railroads. Why does that strike such fear in your hearts? Picture a fire scene with hoses draped across the tracks and firefighters along the right of way, and the fire chief calls the railroad and ORDERS them to stop all movements through the area for the safety of his men. That "request" is a lawful order, and well within the authority given to fire chiefs by numerous statutes and voluminous case law. The railroad would not be extending a courtesy to the fire chief, they would be BOUND to follow his or her directive..
 Return to “Pan Am Railways (formerly Guilford Rail System)”
 - All times are UTC-05:00 -