Local/state police jurisdiction over railroads

Tim. Your argument is extremely flawed. Any first year high school debater knows that you never argue a negative first of all. Just because those things didn't happen doesn't mean that they couldn't, didn't, or wouldn't. I'll speak for Massachusetts only here and suggest to you that as a police supervisor, that if it came to my attention that you failed to make every effort to stop upon the lawful command of a police officer, and that failure, meaning no real effort, resulted in a threat, injury, or death, you are going to be arrested for Murder, Assault by means of a Deadly Weapon, or Assault and Battery by means of a Dangerous Weapon forthwith, felonies which carry with them a potential incarceration in State's Prison. This false deluded sense that many railroaders affect that they have diplomatic style immunity except to Federal authorities is going to be a bubble which will pop just like those sudsy bubbles in the shower of MCI Walpole. P.S. Don't drop the soap.

Hey now!

Any further mention of showers or soap is hereby banned from this thread. Let's not go there!

I think the bottom line here is that a municipal or state police officer can't pull over a train for speeding, can't demand that an engineer stop and produce a log book (e.g. like they do with truckers on the highway), can't ticket him for having a burned-out headlight, can't cite him for disturbing the peace with his locomotive horn, etc., but the police still have jurisdiction over issues that don't fall under FRA/DOT regulations. Am I right?

Yes MEC 407 you are right...and 3rd rail...I mean no disrespect...I was refering the the previous post that if he tied some to the rail and that was all he said...so if he tied someone to the rail and I don't know about it and come around the curve...I can't stop on a dime!....which also goes to the other coment that if a PD or FD stands in front of me whith out any warning and says STOP...Please 3rd rail...tell me how to stop a tonnage freight!...Once the train goes into, emergency it's out of my hands..it will stop when it stops...All I was saying that there are procedures for stopping a train...Please 3rd rail. Don't ever put it to a test...Don't walk out in front of a train, especially an Amtrak,thump you chest and say STOP..
It doesn't work that way

You are right, MEC as far as Massachusetts is concerned. The key with enforcing motor vehicle law as you have mentioned is that railroad locomotives/motors must be legally defined as motor vehicles. In Massachusetts, they are specifically defined as not being motor vehicles. I don't know their status as far as this is concerned in Maine. I do know that in Maryland that the opposite is true. There, they do consider motorized trains as motor vehicles, which is how they were able to successfully indict Ricky Gates. (A personal question - Does anyone know if trolleys, either trackless or streetcars, are registered in Baltimore, carrying registration plates ?) As far as any other non-specific law, which 99 % are, all are applicable to anyone within the State unless they have recognized status as a diplomat. (Unfortunately I already checked and my moderator's status here on RRN, doesn't afford me this immunity ! )

Tim - The message is sincere...but I was having a little fun with you. The way that the courts second guess cops...in many cases years after an incident, I probably have a better chance of winding up in the "big house" than yourself ! Hopefully, neither of us will, and I would be very surprised if either of us did. I have a very high regard for train guys as I know quite a few and they are quality people. If I appear to be taking the "policeman's side", I'm not. I'm only trying to call a spade a spade and advise so none of you guys gets hurt. Also, somebody (I forgot who) made a very insiteful comment about civil liability after refusing to stop for public safety personnel. That could tie your life up for years. I got sued two weeks after retirement and it just resolved itself late this past year. In between, there were depositions, lawyers meetings, yech...oy vey !

KSmitty wrote:Thanks to 3rdRail for the quoted law! TPR, that is all I asked for, just a simple citation of local law. Welcome to the forums Steamship, you stepped into a hotbed of coals on this topic!

Thank goodness you were satisfied......and which chapters and sections of Massachusetts General Law did he cite again?

A couple of thoughts from a (hopefully somewhat rational) non-railroader and non-member of the law enforcement community:

-I thought that part of the whole "railroad property is special" thing was a holdover from the days when there basically was no local law enforcement in much of the United States-- and not just out West. For example, my hometown of Ridgefield, Conn., while founded in 1708, didn't get a full time local police presence until a State Police barracks was opened in the early 1920s. Is that part of the reason for what seem to be in certain ways grey areas?

-Isn't there a doctrine of "hot pursuit" that would cover some of the examples cited above-- i.e. someone being tied to the rails (or more realistically, someone committing a crime then attempting to escape by train)?

-Am I right in thinking that the basic premise here is common sense? For instance, train crew would be within their rights in being uncooperative with a local law enforcement request if that request involved something which the train crew, but not the local PD, knew was dangerous and/or illegal?

TPR37777 wrote:......and which chapters and sections of Massachusetts General Law did he cite again?

From right in 3rdRail's post with the quoted law "Massachusetts General Law, Chapter 160, Section 231."

Just wanted to intervene real quick.. I have read through this thread and have some regulatory experience and knowledge.

First, we need to remember the field is no place to argue with law enforcement. You guys need to understand that any sworn member of any agency can commence the first step of a very long and uncomfortable process. It doesn't matter if the enforcer is outside of their jurisdiction, making an unlawful arrest, infringing upon regulatory code or even violating their own departmental policy. If they decide to arrest you, who is going to stop them? Your defense to have the case dropped, dismissed or acquitted comes later. In the meantime, you've been pulled out of your locomotive, arrested, potentially suspended, embarrassed, cuffed, possibly shackled, thrown into a police car, hauled to a secure warehouse where you can expect the corrections staff to handle you as a dangerous felon and insignificant member of society, strip search you, lock you in a cement room and generally house you with people who actually deserve to be there. And that's just the beginning. Should you continue to argue with the police officer, you'll find yourself tasered and in a restraint chair. All of this because you challenged a law enforcement officer. Federally regulated or not, the best thing to do is just comply when possible. In cases where you're forced to comply with the order, liability from that point forward actually lies with the law enforcement officer who issued the order. If any police officer tells you to move your train and you respond by telling him moving the train would be unsafe and your response is supported by the controlling dispatcher, and that prompts the police officer to command you to move that train or you're going to jail, then move it. But if that train derails or something bad happens that affects railroad property, public safety or life, that police officer could be held criminally and civilly liable. While there are statutes in most states that exempt law enforcement from such liability, those same statutes usually require a nifty little element called good faith. Police officers are just as responsible for their actions as you are. Expecting that accountability to be upheld in a smaller capacity might be unrealistic at times but in a situation where a freight train derails or someone gets run over because of that police officer, I would expect railroad police to intervene, investigate and charge that police officer accordingly with crimes ranging from criminal trespass to endangerment and quite possibly elevated assault, manslaughter or even murder. Again, police officers can make whatever decisions they so desire but their actions are not automatically immune from prosecution. Responsible members of law enforcement understand this but those who are egotistical, arrogant and want to lock up the entire nation will unfortunately, at some point in their career, learn the hard way. These are the guys that act out of personal interest or sequence and wind up being shot because they artificially manufactured danger. You can profile these individuals because they will argue you with every step of the way to show their superiority.

Anyway, be sure to keep your dispatcher or manager abreast of the situation detail-for-detail. The more involvement the better. I do not know the inner workings of railroads in the sense of how they support engineers in these types of situations, but I would definitely be in touch with the railroad police and share my experience after completing my trip. I would also ask my agency to intervene by contacting a superior officer of the local or state agency if the order caused undue jeopardy, was unlawful or just wrong. Initiating agency-to-agency communication is a better option than arguing with a police officer in the field. I respect all responsible members of law enforcement but I have no care for those who abuse the job. These are the guys that head to Mexico on vacation and show their badges when they do something wrong expecting what they call professional courtesy. Any reasonable local or state police officer would consult with an engineer about moving his train rather than throw around an uninformed order. It would be a much wiser response than issuing commands for the purpose of control especially since most people including cops have no knowledge/experience with railroad operations. Now if the engineer wants to challenge the police officer, you can't reasonably expect that police officer to stand down. Unless you have railroad police in your presence making the matter an agency-to-agency issue, that will not happen. Always try to handle these incidents post-compliance if possible. It's much easier and much more effective. Cheers.

tempguy wrote: Responsible members of law enforcement understand this but those who are egotistical, arrogant and want to lock up the entire nation will unfortunately, at some point in their career, learn the hard way. These are the guys that act of personal interest or out of sequence and wind up being shot because they manufactured their own danger. You can profile these individuals because they will argue you with every step of the way to show their superiority right or wrong.

I respect all responsible members of law enforcement but I have no care for those who abuse the job. These are the guys that head to Mexico on vacation and show their badges when they do something wrong expecting what they call professional courtesy.

Oy vey, tempguy. What happened ? You started out promising, faltered, and then crashed like a sack of potatoes ! First of all, this stuff about policemen pulling over trains and getting into arguments is WAY overblown in this thread. Statistically, I'm sure that right now somewhere in the world there is a silver monkey drinking Moxie out of a golden goblet, but here in Boston ? I don't think so. The same with police/engineer arguments. Trust me when I tell you that we really are not interested in what engineers are doing unless it comes to our attention. We don't go to Logan Airport and give pilots a breathylizer. We don't go to South Station and stop a train for speeding out of the yard. We're too busy answering radio calls and dealing with on-site crazies and armed robberies.

Your little tirade about the guys "that wind up being shot" is a personal insult to me. My first on Railroad.Net since my beginning in 2006. I have friends who were shot to death in the line of duty. Each one, without exception, was doing an act of bravery or kindness at the time of their death. My friend Tommy Rose let a scum bag out of his cell because the creep said that he had to make "another important" telephone call. He grabbed Tommy's revolver out of his holster and killed him with his own gun. My friend Sherman Griffiths was serving a felony drug trafficking warrant on a violent fugitive from justice / illegal alien when he was shot through a door and murdered, I was shot at with a long-range rifle while arresting a major east coast gang leader...there are too many for me to bother listing off to you. You wouldn't understand anyway. None of us at the time were either "egotistical", "arrogant", or "wanted to lock up the entire nation", as you put it so ignorantly.

Show my badge in Mexico ? Yeah, right !

Stick to your temp work, tempguy, and write about paper cuts.

[personal attacks redacted by the moderator]

Hmmm...me senses an unbalance.

tempguy wrote:[personal attacks redacted by the moderator]

There is no room for this here...

How can you give any of this "advice" A) not being a member of law enforcement or B) a railroad employee? You have no experience in either field and make a lot of accusations.

Tempguy, you're new here (welcome to the site, by the way), but we do have some rules, and one of them is no personal attacks against other members of the site. The rules for the Pan Am forum can be found at http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 55&t=62283 and the overall site rules can be found at http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 17&t=59347 -- please take a look at them. Thanks.

My own personal experience relating to railroad guys is that railroad and police guys get along very well with each other. (They get along better than with fire fighters ! hahaha!!!) Seriously, there is a common "work ethic", nepotistic generational connection of family members following in footsteps, the tumultuous experience of dealing with members of the general public (demonstrated recently on this thread), and common sense common to both that binds both occupations. Encounters are far more likely to be helpful or cooperative than opposing and argumentative. Examples which you RR guys will undoubtably recognize:
- the professional way with respect that the vast majority of RR guys and cops handle other persons in their care.
- police responding to disturbance calls on trains, often subbing for RR police who are not in the immediate area.
- RR conductors allowing easy, free access to police in times of disaster, as was Amtrak's policy during the 2001 WTC crisis.
- the "activation" of an off-duty police officer on board as a passenger for reasons that require a police presence on a train.
- the general friendliness of RR personnel who are willing to show interested cops ( ) their equipment.

I submit to you that I have personally involved myself in each of the above categories numerous times. The real railroaders know that this is the way that it really is, and this stuff about all this struggling with "who has what jurisdiction" is nonsense.

Anyway, Happy Father's Day everyone ! Remember, if it wasn't for Dads, there would be no trains !