LIRR Operating Rules / Signals

Another member brought up a question which I thought would get a better answer on here.

What type of operating rules does LIRR use? Do they use the same type of operating rules and signals as Metro-North?

I think the LIRR has it's own, very unique, set of rules.

LIRR still has its own operating rules. They run under their own rules
into Penn Station even though Penn Station is owned and operated by
Amtrak. While Amtrak rules are in effect on their trackage, LIRR crews
are instructed on the differences where they occur in this territory.
There would be much less room for error and problems if all of the
northeast and eastern railroads, freight, Amtrak and commuter would
settle on and operate on the same book. This would not be that difficult to
accomplish. The NORAC came as close and still does but CSX pulled
former Conrail out of it while the LIRR and Metro-North never joined up.
The idea of all the different rulebooks in this area some of it resulting in
two or three different books on one short trip makes no sense to me at
all.
The LIRR and Metro-North people are not badly affected by the present
situation but Amtrak and the freight railroad people sure are.
Noel Weaver

Hi CSX..

The LIRR Rules of the Operating Dept. are based on the "Standard Code of Operating Rules". We still have superiority between trains, Train Orders, Clearence Cards, etc...probably one of the last. Certainly, the largest remaining example of how a railroad operates on the Standard Code. I hope it never changes.

Not at all like Metro-North...In Amtrak territory, we are under NORAC and operate under NORAC.

If you would like to know more just ask..hope this helps

Liquidcamphor wrote:Hi CSX..

The LIRR Rules of the Operating Dept. are based on the "Standard Code of Operating Rules". We still have superiority between trains, Train Orders, Clearence Cards, etc...probably one of the last. Certainly, the largest remaining example of how a railroad operates on the Standard Code. I hope it never changes.

Not at all like Metro-North...In Amtrak territory, we are under NORAC and operate under NORAC.

If you would like to know more just ask..hope this helps

The biggest problems with the rules are between CSX, NORAC and Metro-
North. The only place that the LIRR shares trackage is Penn Station and
that is well addressed by both railroads.
Keep those 19 orders and form A's coming, they are history just about
everywhere else. I think I still have the last train order that I ever got
around here somewhere.
Noel Weaver

Hi Noel...


Nice post. Glad you see where I'm coming from!

Most of us in the Transportation Dept. are proud of the fact that we still use rules based on the Standard Code. Let's face it. They require a lot of training and are loaded with tradition and it's like being part of something that has it's roots in the heyday of railroading. And without them, the LIRR is just another bland, commuter railroad. They reflect what was the "real railroad" that the LIRR used to be.

Unfortunately, there are some "upstairs" who, because they truly do not understand train rules and such, would like to revamp the system to a more modern General Code of Operating Rules or NORAC. The "old guard" on the LIRR won't have it for now, but that will change.

Up until recently Metro-North had a similar Rule Book using Form 19's, etc. Then (I think about '97 or '99) they changed their Rule book which uses "Form M", which does away with superiority and has everything on 1 piece of paper. This is NOT NORAC and is unique to MN. This also facilitated their abolishing Agent/operators, which affected the ticket agents at Wilton, Danbury and the operator at Walk Tower.

LI personnel have to know the NORAC rules for the joint Amtrak territory, and LI operators in PSCC and Harold when it was open were qualified on both books. I believe one of the major freight carriers around here also switched from NORAC to their native rule book from down south, I think it was CSX.

One of the things not mentioned about the rules is why some roads use what they need and that's mostly determined by type of railroading and amount of traffic. The LI still uses alot of Manual Block/single main track with a lot of traffic, especially during the summer schedule which would preclude the use of a simpler rule book, as there isn't enough checks and balances to keep from having a major violation. I don't see them changing the book until you have 261 farther east on the Montauk, and more retirements of the old timers.

when 261 hits Speonk that might be ebough for a rule chage Babylon would then have control of the train that go further then speonk.
is going to suck loosing this classic railroad operation, but oh well the future will catch up with us soon. as much as i dont want to see the LIRR rules change and Position lights dissappear into history, it is evident that its going to happen in our life time.

I'm not sure that pos-light signals are going to disappear completely. Even if LIRR abolished all wayside automatic-block signals, we'd still have position-lights at interlockings, unless they eventually convert over to Metro-North "traffic-light" style signals. That would be regrettable.

Unless there is a (God forbid) major accident involving the use of train orders or anything relating to the old rulebook, the LIRR will be reluctant to change.

No one wants to be the one who changed the rulebook and someone has a mad accident due to not understanding the new rules.

I heard in the past right from the president's mouth "If it works, and I had to qualify on it, so should you."

Jay

i agree Jay.

also would not be an easy task in changing the rules either.

would it be possible to get a copy of the rule book and a guide to all the signals? i know they give out to study for those trying to become conductors, so i know someone here must have a copy.

With CSX insisting on us going to their rules as opposed to NORAC, it seems as though they are going backwards.

And even the new CSX operating rules still incorporate some former NORAC rules under new rule numbers (such as the cab signal territory instructions)

In the former Conrail DCS territory, the EC-1 Form replaces the Form D. Signal aspects are still referred to by their NORAC aspects and indications.

Down on the pre-split CSX territory (Chessie, Seaboard, RF&P, etc), the EC-1 Form replaces their Form E-R and Form W, but they still use DTC forms and blocks in their dark territory.

Along my route, it is a special pain, as we not only carry the CSX rule book, but we have the NORAC book for operation on Conrail Shared Assets, and Norfolk Southern (a few of our jobs use NS (ex-Conrail) trackage. Also, portions of the Trenton Line still dispatched by SEPTA are still under full NORAC rules, despite CSX ownership.

And here are some old Form 19s to enjoy.

Dave Keller