Hoboken: why (1) idling and (2) low-level platforms?

I used to commute through Hoboken three days a week. So I was aware that heavy rains and high tides sometimes produced some flooding but this is the first I heard that the terminal floods on a regular basis.

Tommy Meehan wrote:I used to commute through Hoboken three days a week. So I was aware that heavy rains and high tides sometimes produced some flooding but this is the first I heard that the terminal floods on a regular basis.

The entire terminal is built out over water. If it rains heavy, the terminal will flood at high tide. Also, if it rains heavy up north on the Hudson River, the terminal will flood under the same conditions.

Sometimes its only a few inches, but it has been known to breach the tops of the platforms.

I wonder how much fumes are emitted from this while idling in a yard?

Patrick Boylan wrote:

sullivan1985 wrote:There are wayside plugs on some depot tracks. All are OOS and most likely destroyed from the regular flooding the depot is subjected to.

I wonder, since they should have known about Hoboken's flooding problems and the station has had overhead catenary train power for over 80 years, why are the wayside plugs set so low that they might get destroyed from flooding? Shouldn't they have been able to have arranged the plugs to dangle from above, and be relatively easily moved closer to the ceiling, or modularly detached and replaced? I'm assuming train hotel power is 600 volts DC.

Because having wayside power jacks dangling from the metal train shed right next to energized 25kV catenary wire is a super awesome idea isn't it?

Thanks for coming in today!

Re-Opened lets stay on topic.

Ok, my original comments were deleted because someone thought they were personal attacks. They absolutely were not. What I tried to say after Sully mentioned that these arent buses and that they MUST run all day, my response was that railroads have been getting in trouble because of these actions. Just look in the LIRR thread about Long Island City and Conrail ran into problems years ago in NJ as well. I also mentioned that many railroads installed the auto start stop on locomotives to prevent locomotives from idling all day but this cost money and what it cost I have no idea but Im sure railroads have there reason to not have them??? Also I made a joke when I THOUGHT other forum members were ganging up on Sully about why the electrical sockets were no longer operable in Hoboken by saying that hes not an official NJT spokesman but since the whole area is prone to flooding, I would have to agree with his assestments. There was no malalicious intent and thats no BS...

Also, what diesel trainsets idle in Hoboken all day? I have been in and out of Hoboken numerous times and never thought the station or platform area was over bearing with diesel fumes. I doubt any passenger is hanging around for 8 hours a day and neither are the employees. Does any diesel sets actually sit in the station all day as someone claimed???

Patrick Boylan wrote: Shouldn't they have been able to have arranged the plugs to dangle from above, and be relatively easily moved closer to the ceiling, or modularly detached and replaced? I'm assuming train hotel power is 600 volts DC.

Dangling wires just scream "rip me down." The smart move would've been to put what I believe are the red boxes on the ground in the yard, elevated off the ground in panels similar to this: http://bit.ly/vzAnPZ

AFAIK, train HEP is transmitted via 480VAC bus on Amtrak and NJT trains/coaches. From there, I would think the voltage is then stepped down on board each car for the various systems.

OportRailfan wrote:

Patrick Boylan wrote: Shouldn't they have been able to have arranged the plugs to dangle from above, and be relatively easily moved closer to the ceiling, or modularly detached and replaced? I'm assuming train hotel power is 600 volts DC.

Dangling wires just scream "rip me down." The smart move would've been to put what I believe are the red boxes on the ground in the yard, elevated off the ground in panels similar to this: http://bit.ly/vzAnPZ

AFAIK, train HEP is transmitted via 480VAC bus on Amtrak and NJT trains/coaches. From there, I would think the voltage is then stepped down on board each car for the various systems.

Very true. I cant picture what Sunnyside Yard has but I know the boxes are on the ground. Could the wires themselves be hung and then hooked into the train? Probably. I know this is a stupid idea, but if this does turn into a serious problem in Hoboken, the easiest solution is to just shut the diesel down and hook up an electric to keep trains energized instead of installing the HEP boxes and associated cables, right? Its hyperthetical of course. Of course soemtimes you have to worry, once you shut a diesel down, you hope that it comes back online....

There is another reason why the diesel locomotives are not shut down - many of the diesel locomotive according to a "little birdie" have weak or dead starting batteries and may not be able to be re-started if shut down. I have been told that usually this gets corrected as they rotate for inspection but we all know how that turns out sometimes...

From experience I will say that it doesn't surprise me the 480 boxes in hoboken are OOS. We have them in sunnyside, and every night its a guessing game of which ones work and which ones dont because they are consistently being damaged by poor drivers, and bad cables grounding out the boxes and blowing them up. And cables from the ceiling? Your nuts. 3 phase 480VAC knows NO mercy. We allow our P32ACDMs to idle away providing HEP to keep the albany and canada trains warm all night and that is not only making a lot of air pollution, but a lot of noise pollution. The AC dual modes now mostly have auto start stop systems, and are consistently shut down and restarted for their electric mode thru penn station, so the batteries and starting systems stay well exercised. We would save a ton of fuel by shutting them down at night, one burns something like 20 gallons per hour? I know I have watched the fuel gauge drop by the gallons from the time I set foot on the engine to being a daily inspection to the time I have gotten off the loco. These also have a hot start system to keep the coolant, fuel and lube oil warm via wayside 480, a system that NJT also has on almost every diesel they have.

NJT will run an engine for well over 92 days without ever shutting down the main prime mover. From what I understand though the little pony motors for HEP, if providing HEP to the train, could be kept running to keep 480VAC going and keep the hot start system nice and toasty even without using the wayside power system. However the problem still lies where GE had mentioned, if the batteries are weak and wont hold a charge for long it wont crank, or if the starters are bad or wont engage to the flywheel, your screwed.

Few things here -

1. EMD blocks have some design quirk where the cooling water can get intermixed with the engine oil, so antifreeze cannot be used in an EMD. If an EMD gets too cold, I believe the coolant water is auto-dumped and the engine now has to have new coolant water supplied. Ergo, they idle to keep the temp of the coolant up. I'm not a locomotive mechanic so this explanation is not exact, if one of the pros can verify or adjust my explanation please do.

2. Out here in Chicago, all downtown terminals have 480 shore power on the ground, although we don't have flooding problems even in the underground terminals. The outlying suburban yards have 480 shore power from a giant signal bridge (sans signals) and that could be a better solution although I'm not very familiar with Hoboken. Maybe hang it from the catenary post at the bumper, etc...
(Metra Aurora yard: http://i.pbase.com/g3/04/933904/2/12086 ... S39lS1.jpg)

The photo says forbidden? A least for me. I never heard of a design quirk in an EMD motor where coolant gets intermixed with engine oil. That sounds like a Chrysler problem, see 2.7L engine. Diesels run at higher temps because they are compression combustion engines. They are most effiecent at higher temps, temps that are higher than your normal gasoline engine. Water is used because when your coolant capacity is about 250 gallons on an average EMD. As a railroad, you arent going to want to have to go out and spend that much on Prestone every time the thing gets a leak or needs to be drained for whatever reason, and also antifreeze only lasts so long and has to be replaced. Water is cheap enough, so they simply ad a pink substance to the water which is an anti-corrosive and then fill em up.

Patrick Boylan wrote:

sullivan1985 wrote:There are wayside plugs on some depot tracks. All are OOS and most likely destroyed from the regular flooding the depot is subjected to.

I wonder, since they should have known about Hoboken's flooding problems and the station has had overhead catenary train power for over 80 years, why are the wayside plugs set so low that they might get destroyed from flooding? Shouldn't they have been able to have arranged the plugs to dangle from above, and be relatively easily moved closer to the ceiling, or modularly detached and replaced? I'm assuming train hotel power is 600 volts DC.

No, the hotel power is 480 volts, three-phase A.C. You probably got the 600 volt D.C. idea from the LIRRs push-pull cars, which had that type of hotel power. But the LIRR cars were former electric MU cars which were modified for diesel territory operation when they were displaced from electric schedules by the then-new M-1 cars. They needed a source of 600 volt D.C. in lieu of third rail current to drive the air conditioning, lighting and electric heat in the cars. The NJT cars do not fall into this category.

480 volt A.C. has become the national standard for hotel power in passenger cars. It is used by Amtrak and every regional commuter agency. Only GO Transit in Ontario, Canada differs in that they use 575-volt A.C. There are those in the U.S. who feel that we should have standardized on a voltage higher than 480 in order to reduce the amps drawn by the train, and permit a single HEP engine to heat and cool a much longer train.

cruiser939 wrote:

Patrick Boylan wrote:

sullivan1985 wrote:There are wayside plugs on some depot tracks. All are OOS and most likely destroyed from the regular flooding the depot is subjected to.

I wonder, since they should have known about Hoboken's flooding problems and the station has had overhead catenary train power for over 80 years, why are the wayside plugs set so low that they might get destroyed from flooding? Shouldn't they have been able to have arranged the plugs to dangle from above, and be relatively easily moved closer to the ceiling, or modularly detached and replaced? I'm assuming train hotel power is 600 volts DC.

Because having wayside power jacks dangling from the metal train shed right next to energized 25kV catenary wire is a super awesome idea isn't it?

Thanks for coming in today!

YOW I dont even wanna know how that one would play out..

Amtrak67 of America wrote:

OportRailfan wrote:

Patrick Boylan wrote: Shouldn't they have been able to have arranged the plugs to dangle from above, and be relatively easily moved closer to the ceiling, or modularly detached and replaced? I'm assuming train hotel power is 600 volts DC.

Dangling wires just scream "rip me down." The smart move would've been to put what I believe are the red boxes on the ground in the yard, elevated off the ground in panels similar to this: http://bit.ly/vzAnPZ

AFAIK, train HEP is transmitted via 480VAC bus on Amtrak and NJT trains/coaches. From there, I would think the voltage is then stepped down on board each car for the various systems.

I know this is a stupid idea, but if this does turn into a serious problem in Hoboken, the easiest solution is to just shut the diesel down and hook up an electric to keep trains energized instead of installing the HEP boxes and associated cables, right?

Many of the yard tracks in Hoboken don't have catenary so that wouldn't be too feasible.