Genesis discussion (AMD-103, P40DC, P42DC)

Should Amtrak acquire new power from Siemens, maybe some of the units could be set up to use LNG fuel rather than diesel. For a fuel tender one could use a sidelined P40 that would be stripped down and refitted for that purpose. With SC 44 on each end, an ABA configuration, if you would, it could be tested on Auto Train first. If successful, it could be used system wide on all LD routes.

I like the idea, but I suspect the 7FDL has been more thoroughly tested on LNG than the QSK95 has. Maybe biodiesel would be a good test option too?

This is also WAY beyond any fleet renovation plans proposed here.

BM6569 wrote:I wasn't aware the P40's had a circuit board problem

A scarcity problem, not a problem-problem. Where today's locos are heavily firmware-based and old stuff is analog and/or very simplistic in the electrical cabinets all Gennies have mid-90's microprocessor circuits that aren't produced anymore and are hard to re-create today. Generic pitfall of them being first-gen computer brains. Simple attrition over 20 years has dwindled the parts supply, so the warehouse doesn't have much to work with. Affects both P40's and P42's (with P32's having their own custom boards).

Coming up with reproductions is considerable expense. They can do it, but only if they need a large enough quantity of new board stock for returning mothballed locos to service or restocking the warehouse for a really long duration. Since there isn't a diesel shortage forcing them to rationalize the stored P40's...just a need to keep the active roster stable on MTBF...they aren't staring at an outright deficit of spare boards needing spending action right this second. And won't unless the Really Big Procurement™ puts all 190+ active Gennies through a full-on 20-year overhaul. Because even if some quantity less than 190 Gennies ends up sticking around for awhile, if there's going to be some excess surplus not needed they'll have some unneeded black-sheep reserve units to raid for extra boards. Trigger for factory reproductions (and $$$ therein) ends up being all-or-nothing; those parts only really need to be budgeted if full-on Gennie rebuild IS the Really Big Procurement™. Not for anything less (inclusive of this limited-scope refresh).

BM6569 and F-Line: looks like Amtrak needs to do some catalog searching. New boards are probably expensive (if they can’t get a reasonable open-source alternative) but should be relatively easy to produce domestically in small batches if they have schematics.

It's still all proprietary GE circuitry, so the IP costs for the reverse-engineer are what jacks up the price...not the actual fabrication. One of the things that's always been true about buying GE from the debut of the postwar U-boats all the way to today's Tier 4 GEVO's is that they police their supply chain much more tightly than EMD et al. ever did. Which makes them a generally better buy for getting extended service/support decades deep into a unit's lifespan because they'll still support their old stuff long after EMD has told you to go fend for yourself on the aftermarket...but it comes with the downside of having to pay for the name-brand parts. It's why they have such a dominant hand with Class I's (which Gennie users Amtrak and VIA technically are) and Class II's where long-term S&S contracts are a good buy, but Class III's and shortlines who need the lower overhead and rely more on DIY maintenance still remain an EMD stronghold.

So it's not hard to get if they truly need it...but the batch size is make-or-break for the purchase decision because it's going to cost a lot to get access to the GE schematics before porting them into microcode. Something they'd easily reach for if there were compelling reason to bring back the stored P40's to increase the Gennie fleet size in addition to restocking the warehouse for the active units. But not something they'd do if the fleet size projected stable or surplus after the 63 Chargers are accepted, the handful of remaining revenue-assigned Dash 8's slide off into the work/protect pool, the F59's (at least the 21 AMTK-owned ones) came offline, and the active P40/P42 assignments shape-shift from areas of plenty to areas of want. It's hard to picture where a 5-dozen unit dump of new engines leaves them with any national diesel shortages, especially with Caltrans being able to chart its own draw-down schedule on what it does with its glut of 15 self-owned F59's. That's why the national Charger options are only 150, and not 200+; the national pool is physically smaller now that PRIAA's scraped Chicago hub, Caltrans, and WSDOT onto state self-ownership. It'll get smaller still when NYSDOT gets scraped off with its dual-mode order and New England + PA + VA + Heartland Flyer members become the last remaining pay-in states to the nat'l power pool (because of NEC attachment and/or absence of statie-serving regional equipment bases). NY's borrowing privileges from the nat'l pool for ALB engine swaps end with that dual-mode order; they will either have to buy enough duals to run all state-sponsored (i.e. excluding Lake Shore Ltd.) trains end-to-end on the same loco, or go leaner on the dual units but bring all their swap needs in-house by buying up a straight-diesel (old beater or otherwise) roster for the ALB handoffs.

Right now the only thing that's causing a pinch in fleet availability are shop rotations for those PTC installs...but that's one-and-done in a couple months. They will have some bona fide extra Gennies with nowhere to go after that 5-dozen-plus dump of Chargers finish acceptances in Spring, the Dash 8's and F59's mostly exit the revenue scene, and P42's rotate around to plug gaps. Worn units will have the luxury of much more downtime at Beech Grove to get tended to without need to get rushed back into service, so they can immediately commit to a longer dead line and more plodding shop pace for returning units to service. And then knows how many more extra they'll have after NYSDOT places its order, since I would think buying enough duals padding to run end-of-end is going to be less costly than bringing both halves of the engine swap in-house. If 150 units is the strictly-national fleet requirement going forward and an extra 3-dozen "found-money" units are all the extras you could ever lather on as supplementals...well, you've still got like 2-3 dozen more P42/P40's sitting around with absolutely nowhere to go. Which probably means all the active P40's get yanked into operable reserve to simplify things. At that point who cares if there's 2 or 3 units sitting dead at any given moment because some unit coming out of the shop needed to bum a circuit board. They'll just keep hot-plugging boards as they churn leisurely through the dead line without ever actually seeing a shortage come close to manifesting itself.


Restocking that part doesn't project as a priority unless the Really Big Procurement™ sets its sights on total fleet overhaul of all 192 P42's +/- some sum of 12-28 P40's. And it's hard to fathom how they could ever need a fleet size that big when the post-PRIAA national diesel pool is that much smaller and there are only so many found extras you can shiv into new/protect revenue service before they just start clogging the yards on-idle. If after all that you're still looking at another 2-3 dozen MORE units on the outside looking in that have absolutely nowhere to go except sale/lease to commuter rail operators...strip a few circuit boards from those dispersals to plug the warehouse before putting the rest out to pasture as commuter rent-a-wrecks.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:NY's borrowing privileges from the nat'l pool for ALB engine swaps end with that dual-mode order

Why is that?

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:And then knows how many more extra they'll have after NYSDOT places its order, since I would think buying enough duals padding to run end-of-end is going to be less costly than bringing both halves of the engine swap in-house.

That would be nice! They could shave 30 minutes off the schedule for each engine change they eliminate. Perhaps that would confer momentum to the "high speed rail" project that they keep studying.

Questions
1. How many spare P-42s might be needed to increase the number of locos on vulnerable trains. Thinking of EB and LSL going into a large snow storm as one example.
2. Circuit boards. Oh what a bucket of worms. What exactly do these boards do and are there more than one type or more than one location / function the boards do.
3. Experience in the aviation business. We had an aircraft that had hundreds of boards with about 5 separate part numbers. The boards were very prone to vibration damage. Often would replace 2 or 3 boards after every day.
4. Could the P-42s board be subject to vibration problems ? Over time many of the new parts were beefed up but still had problems.

dumpster.penguin wrote:

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:NY's borrowing privileges from the nat'l pool for ALB engine swaps end with that dual-mode order

Why is that?

All because of the new PRIAA law about state self-ownership of equipment for state-sponsored routes to square things with Amtrak's recent corporate reorganization (i.e. separate divisions for LD's, NEC, and statie routes) transferring more administrative responsibility for the statie routes away from the mothership. These new procurements are the transition points where the states have to stop borrowing from the national pool with pay-in fees and start owning their equipment up to the fleet requirements of their funded (and planned-funded) service levels. The Midwest, California, and Pacific Northwest just had their transition point with the coach and statie-Charger base orders. New York will have its transition points with the dual-mode order and the East Coast Amfleet-replacement coach order.

For power only, the only states that don't have to self-own are the ones that by necessity have to share equipment bases with the NEC and LD's from lack of other practical options. That means VA and PA because they're shackled to the national Sprinter fleet for NEC thru-running and have their diesel changes tethered to NEC LD equipment bases, MA/CT because their diesels are tethered to NE Regional equipment bases, NNEPRA because the Downeaster diesels are tethered Albany-Boston via the LD Lake Shore Ltd., and TX/OK for the Heartland Flyer because that route is nowhere near any statie equipment bases. Those states out of sheer administrative necessity will keep cutting checks to borrow from the national diesel pool same as before instead of self-owning like WSDOT, Caltrans, Chicago hub, and NYSDOT.



For New York (+ itty-bitty share of VTrans cash for running the EAE) with the power order, that means they also have to transition Albany away from borrowing from the national straight-diesel pool at the engine swaps. That does NOT mean that the practice of engine-swapping non-LSL Empire trains has to end or in any way change...but it does mean that once they buy the P32-replacement duals they're on-the-clock for transitioning off the national fleet for any straight-diesels they use on those routes. Which leaves 2 options:

#1. Buy enough additional slack quantities of new dual-modes to reliably run all schedules end-to-end on one engine and protecting their fleet margins so they aren't forced back into bumming engine swaps with a few more years' growth.

...or...

#2. Buy strictly replacement-level new duals (w/ padding for funded growth), but also buy up enough straight-diesels to cover all in-house needs on the engine-swap side. They'll be buying new "Charge-Sprint" or whatever duals any which way because the P32's are shot and there's too few of them to begin with to meet PRIAA requirements for funded service. But the straight-diesel swap fleet could conceivably be a bunch of retreads or even NYSDOT cutting a check to Amtrak to transact the share of P42's they already use to in-house ownership.


#2 is a fallback option if they're really hard-up for cash and have to go minimal with the duals quantities. But that order is supposed to be a triple-agency procurement divvied up between Empire (P32 replacement), Metro North (P32 replacement), and LIRR (DM30AC replacement) so it's going to be a huge/75+ base quantity that nets an attractive-enough price point on the options to go for it on #1. On total cost of ownership they'd end up paying a lot less running only one fleet rather than having to own/maintain 2 locos at Albany for most trips, and expand ALB shops to handle unit growth on both sides of the engine swap. Plus if they transact some surplus P42's in-house from the nat'l pool...they're now the ones on-the-hook paying for a pricey full life extension rebuild, and that big job can only be deferred for so many extra years before the bill comes due.

east point wrote:Questions
1. How many spare P-42s might be needed to increase the number of locos on vulnerable trains. Thinking of EB and LSL going into a large snow storm as one example.
2. Circuit boards. Oh what a bucket of worms. What exactly do these boards do and are there more than one type or more than one location / function the boards do.
3. Experience in the aviation business. We had an aircraft that had hundreds of boards with about 5 separate part numbers. The boards were very prone to vibration damage. Often would replace 2 or 3 boards after every day.
4. Could the P-42s board be subject to vibration problems ? Over time many of the new parts were beefed up but still had problems.

1. No idea, but you're dumping 63 new Chargers on right now and subtracting only the F59's and (already mostly work-assigned) Dash 8's so the protect units are already piling up. The P40's already look like a protect fleet-in-wait with how those new numbers balance out. And the Charger options aren't limited to just the 150 national units with the larger fuel tank. There are still 36 un-exercised statie options in the hands of Caltrans and IDOT (WSDOT has exhausted all theirs) that aren't time-limited yet. Those can either be drained by the states holding the shares as extras or laundered out to other agencies like IDOT already did with 8 option units transferred to MARC commuter rail. Not sure when the final drop-dead date is for the statie options, but it's synced up at least a couple fiscal years out to Siemens factory allowances for the nat'l options and also SEPTA's extended deadline on tabbing-or-laundering the extra options on its 13-base/5-option Sprinter order. At least FY2019 before they have to put up or shut up on extras.

Conceivably New York could gobble up those for the engine-swap half of its self-ownership needs if there's enough leftover Caltrans/IDOT units left...but Caltrans has already signaled it's likely to dip into a few more because that'll ensure enough padding to completely get rid of its protect fleet of self-owned F59's. IDOT's not in mood to spend, but they'll take offers for laundering if anybody else (couple more WSDOT padding, more commuter units?) is interested in draining their share.



2. Like most GE and EMD locos dating back to the 1970's classics (EMD "Dash 2" GP40-2's/SD40-2's/F40PH's, GE Dash 7's, etc.) the control electronics for the whole shebang are organized into electrical cabinets with modular plug-in boards. Makes for easy upgrading and maintenance because you can just swap or add boards to upgrade/downgrade the performance features. Until the 1990's those controls were simple analog circuits. Mid-90's you start seeing some 1st-gen microprocessor-controlled locos coming onto the market. They're built the same way, with modular circuit boards plugged into a cabinet...but instead of simple IC's you can get at Radio Shack now you've got actual custom hard-wired computer chips with proprietary schematics on the boards doing more sophisticated things. The Gennies, being a pretty big technological leap for the time, were one of the first mass-produced microprocessor control locos...but you also had retrofits of older power for processor control showing up like the AEM-7AC remans (and some outright lemons like the ALP-44M production run and GP40MC remans).

In the 2000's the 2nd-generation microprocessor brains transitioned off custom hardware onto off-shelf flash memory. Basically porting a lot of that stuff in the electrical cabinet that used to be analog IC's...then custom computer chips...to software. And that's why makes like the Sprinters had such a long debugging period; the controls were more software than hardware, but the software could be upgraded at any time by flashing the memory to fix issues. The software is complicated as hell, but the hardware that hosts it is now just generic flash ROM. You can load the software on pretty much anything, or even virtualize the software within other software.

That's going to be great for the longevity of the newer-gen power that can adapt to change by having its software flashed at-will. And you're even seeing old analog stuff like F40PH-3 rebuilds now going the microprocessor route (with much simpler flash software) to fine-tune improve their emissions controls for Tier 0+. But it leaves the hardware-fabricated 1st-gen computer stuff from the 90's in an awkward place. Those custom chips aren't produced anymore, because there's no need to produce them. And because they were hard-wired you don't have the fluid upgrade path of changing a few lines of code to upgrade the software. So those Genesis boards end up a constriction. You can reproduce them verbatim (at GE price!) by porting what once was a bunch of chip schematics into microcode and re-hosting it on flash memory. That's not hard, just pricey because of the proprietary GE IP. But actually upgrading it from there to do new things is damn difficult because the hardware you're porting was never designed to be reprogrammed...only replaced/augmented with different boards of different GE custom chips (which weren't ever produced). That means doing a reverse-engineer to extend the functionality is a royal pain.

For the Gennies, it means if they're being rebuilt to factory P42 spec (like the CDOT P40 rebuilds) they're either not going to touch the boards at all while refreshing other stuff or just do a verbatim port with identical functionality. Which is why if Amtrak needs less than 190+ units going forward it's more likely to just scavenge a couple dozen boards from surplus beaters it doesn't need to rebuild rather than try to save every single P42/P40 in existence. So, if 150 national units + 1-2 dozen slack units overhauled for >decade more service is the most they would ever need for a national fleet after the statie Chargers + un-tapped statie Charger options...then they've got their warehouse restocked with boards by scrapping the P40's and a handful of worst-off P42's. It's only if you need to save every...single...unit that it becomes cost-prudent to jump through the hoops of repdroducing the boards. And there really isn't a scenario where they're going to need every...single...unit on the road.

If they opt to rebuild all/most of the fleet to enhanced functionality--Tier 4 emissions, AC traction, GEVO prime movers, other 21st century doohickeys--then they're going to be building new software from scratch matched to the new parts mix and not porting anything legacy in the GE chips. Simply because at that scope of upgrade these things aren't really going to be a factory-spec "Genesis" anymore...they'll be something new and different (like a better-executed HSP-46 in monocoque clothing or something like that). But obviously costs for that kind of program are going to much more resemble paying for another all-new design/build than simply doing a straight-up midlife overhaul at current specs.



3/4. The employees who run them would know best, but given that the Gennies have had 20 years of pretty bulletproof rep in service and haven't experienced long dead lines awaiting replacement part backorders this doesn't appear to be an issue. Nor has that risk scared away Class I's from ordering microprocessor freight power in bulk, given the GE Evolution series' market dominance. Those electrical cabinets that have been around since the 70's Dash 2 classics are built rugged right into the frame with shielding around them that can be ultra-heavy overkill in a way aviation electronic bungalows sure can't. Obviously at >20 years attrition is going to slowly start taking a toll on supplies of any custom part that needs special ordering, but there's been nothing to suggest the control hardware isn't plenty long-lasting and ruggedly-built.

This sounds to me like a basic survival tactic until Amtrak has a good idea of the reliability of the Chargers.

Think about it this way ... They have a once in a generation opportunity to reduce their diesel power fleet from four types (P40, P42, P32, F59) to one common platform. Obviously the P40, P42 and P32 have a common platform but as noted in this discussion even between the P40s and P42s there are some pretty significant differences.

As usual the savings are simply to large to ignore. I suspect we will see Amtrak contract with Siemens for new power in about four years if not sooner. I would expect the remaining power to be sold off as surplus, some might go to commuter operators but a lot probably won't.

It's also worth remembering that a significant portion of what Amtrak purchases won't just be for long distance service. Many state supported services use power from Amtrak's own pools. The Downeaster is one example, along with the Missouri River Runner, Heartland Flyer, Pennsylvanian, Ethan Allen Express, Adirondack (north of ALB), Maple Leaf (west of ALB), Vermonter (north of NHV), Hoosier State, and the Virginia Northeast Regionals.

The one (and only) example of continued reuse anywhere on Amtrak of any of the above types is probably the F59s on the Piedmont by NCDOT. Even that option would still mean that Amtrak would be transferring ownership and (I think) would no longer be responsible for provision of mechanical support.

I didn’t think Amtrak owner the NCDOT F59PH/I fleet anyway. Do they maintain it?

No chance the Genesis sees GEVO powerplants, not with reasonable Tier 0+ rebuild options as well as new passenger power in production at EMD and Siemens (and MPI if you really want to be difficult.) Glad Amtrak has a moderate refresh programmed for them, but after that...

NCDOT owns the 6 F59PH and 2 F59PHI units in active service for the Piedmont.

Rail Plan International maintains the fleet thru a contract with NCDOT. There is an RFP every few years for this contract.

The NCDOT F59's are out in bizzarro world with state ownership and state-contracted maintenance (along with their unicorn coach fleet). Beech Grove never touches them. The only thing Amtrak cares about in terms of standardization for operating the Piedmont is crew training. They'd probably give NCDOT a good tongue-lashing if they bought some completely off-the-wall power with an unorthodox control stand, but something as vanilla as an F59 or the GP40's the Piedmont used to run doesn't faze them.


The West Coast F59 pool is 21 national-owned units in Cascades and Surfliner paint, and 15 Caltrans units in Amtrak California/Cap Corridor paint. All of them are Beech Grove-maintained despite the ownership splits. The AMTK ones were delivered in 1998, the Caltrans ones in a batch of 9 in 1994 (the first of the updated PHI's produced) and 6 in 2001 (the last F59's of any kind produced). The Cascades-paint ones were in particularly wretched condition and are effectively finished; they'll all be be returned to Beech Grove after the Chargers pass warranty milestones. WSDOT has already drained 100% of its Charger options and has all the fleet cushion it needs for the Talgos.

Caltrans has drained enough Charger options to safely expunge its national F59's, but actual retirement sequence of nat'l vs. self-owned units may vary since the oldest batch from '94 (self-owned) is the most urgent retirement priority, the '01 batch (self-owned) least-urgent retirement priority, and the '98 batch Surf-paint nat'l units somewhere in the middle. Some of the Surf-paint ones may stick around just for protects through the Charger warranty milestones, but are otherwise going back to Beech Grove to scrape those costs off the budget. They aren't needed for supplemental service, because Cali won't have the new coaches to do any supplemental service for a couple more years. The 6 self-owned units from the 2001 batch are probably sticking around in the interim because they still have unexercized options on the Charger order to tap before they're completely set for all current + planned service. But Caltrans is probably only looking for an extra fiscal year or two to digest the base order, since final deadline for draining the options is still a couple years away. They've still indicated they aim to dip in for more. They've also got 2 self-owned Dash 8's getting punted into strictly work/protect duty just like the national Dash 8's, so L.A. doesn't have any reason to keep a couple F59's on-roster and try to make ham-fisted work trains out of them.


As for where the F59 dispersals go? Well, no other equipment region is qualified on them so the mothership certainly isn't plugging them elsewhere...not when Gennies are also getting liberally reassigned because of the Charger influx. So once the nat'l 21 hit the Beech Grove dead line that's last stop, and the warehouse clears out its EMD parts cache. That roster will go through the standard couple of years of storage before being offered for resale, and probably live a second life with the rent-a-wreck brokers just like the ex- GO Transit F59PH's. The Caltrans units could cycle intrastate as commuter rail leasers since both Metrolink and Coaster use F59's; funding relationships between Caltrans and the CR agencies make that transactionally attractive. But if somebody rebuilds them, it'll be on a CR agency's dime because the "best of the rest" '01 Caltrans roster is just too small to bother attempting anything in-house.

Those retiring F59s will look good to the commuter rail operators still operating some form of F40PHs and GP-40s - potentially MBTA out of Boston and Merta out of Chicago might find them useful for the near future. Both have really old and unrealiable locomotives running daily they would like to retire.

*Maybe*. The F59's are EMD 710 prime movers, while the F40's and Geeps are EMD 645's. Similar, but not quite the same. And so far they have never been deployed in cab signal territory before so the East Coasters (excluding MBTA northside) and Metra BNSF + Rock Island districts would need to spend for some signal units in order to equip any leasers for immediate use.

If they clear the low wire in Hoboken at all (caveat: not at all sure they do, because they're slightly taller than an F40PH) they'd actually be decent supplementals for NJ Transit because their PL42AC's are also EMD 710-based. PL42's use the Tier 1-compliant update of the 16-cylinder 710 w/electronic fuel injection while F59PHI's are non- EPA tiered 12-cylinder 710's w/EFI (earlier F59PH's identical to the PHI's but without the EFI). It's still not clear exactly how NJT plans to purge the roster of all of their remaining Geeps with only 17 more ALP-45DP's in this new order. Doesn't seem like nearly enough to square their numbers completely. F59PHI's given a Tier 1 update and maybe a small boost from 3200 HP to 34... or 36... making them good enough for 5- or 6-car MLV sets wouldn't be a bad choice at all for plugging the numbers gap on the roster IF the Hoboken clearances are kosher. However, not sure NJT riders would exactly fall in love with the sight on them hauling their train since F59's have a bit of a bad rep for riding rough when they start to get worn; Jersey commuters already hate the PL42's craptacular ride quality with a passion.