Connections at TRE between NJT and SEPTA

jamesinclair wrote:

ExCon90 wrote:How could trains from the west terminate at Hamilton and return westward? I don't know of anywhere they could cross over until Monmouth Jct., and even then tie up the whole NEC making the move, plus all the unproductive time spent deadheading from Hamilton and back when they don't have enough equipment to handle the present service.

I never said this kind of service should be started up tomorrow without any changes.

You can and should do plenty of upgrades. Add a 5th track dedicated for SEPTA trains to terminate onto. Add the appropriate crossing points. Add parking as needed. Maybe even add a looping track so SEPTA doesnt have to cross any other track.

As MACTRAXX pointed out, Hamilton is perfectly situated for drivers coming from a large range of places. It is the optimal park and ride for those who want to reach Philadelphia.

I'd love if SEPTA ran to Newark (or NJT to Philly), but I would wager that Hamilton is the best cost-benefit from SEPTA's point of view, which is, gaining enough ridership to cover the added operating costs. Trenton captures all the transit connection ridership - Hamilton would capture all the driving ridership.

Im not familiar with the SEPTA stations, but judging from what I see from the window, none of the NEC stations between Trenton and Philly seem to offer any sort of adequate park and ride situation.

There is a big park and ride at Cornwell Heights station in Bensalem, just outside of Philadelphia but going there requires you to trudge through I-95 to get to it.

jamesinclair wrote: I never said this kind of service should be started up tomorrow without any changes.

You can and should do plenty of upgrades. Add a 5th track dedicated for SEPTA trains to terminate onto. Add the appropriate crossing points. Add parking as needed. Maybe even add a looping track so SEPTA doesnt have to cross any other track.

As MACTRAXX pointed out, Hamilton is perfectly situated for drivers coming from a large range of places. It is the optimal park and ride for those who want to reach Philadelphia.

I'd love if SEPTA ran to Newark (or NJT to Philly), but I would wager that Hamilton is the best cost-benefit from SEPTA's point of view, which is, gaining enough ridership to cover the added operating costs. Trenton captures all the transit connection ridership - Hamilton would capture all the driving ridership.

Im not familiar with the SEPTA stations, but judging from what I see from the window, none of the NEC stations between Trenton and Philly seem to offer any sort of adequate park and ride situation.

Id like to add that Princeton has a severe parking crunch, and from what I understand, very strong opposition to fixing that problem via a garage, which is why Hamilton came about. Princeton would be a lovely ending point for SEPTA, but only if that parking situation were to be fixed.

Oh, and you know what would be even cooler? SEPTA terminating in Princeton proper. After all, the SEPTA train is the same length as the dinky. Of course, that's about as likely as SEPTA starting service to Chicago.

Id also like to remind you all that Mercer County is part of DVRPC - the metropolitan planning organization that studies transportation is the Philly region. This is because Mercer County is more connected with Philly than with North Jersey or NYC. Thats also why it makes sense for SEPTA to further serve the County.

JS:

First - SEPTA is NOT going to spend any money for any improvements at HML. A fifth track or any added parking
for the limited amount of riders that travel towards Philadelphia will not be built with all the other options to ride
train service towards Philadelphia. It would make sense to make improvements to West Trenton - a station that
SEPTA does control - before there is any thought of plans for extra HML SEPTA service.

Second - You at least admit that you know little about SEPTA Trenton Line stations. As EKT points out for starters
there is the huge park-and-ride at Cornwells Heights that rivals both HML and PJC in actual numbers of spaces.
If you search SEPTA's website you can find in the station listings just how many spaces stations have.
Here is the number of spaces listed for relevant Trenton Line stations and daily cost:
Levittown: 382 (Free); Bristol: 294 (Free); Croydon: 197 ($1);
Cornwells Heights: 329 ($1) and 1600 Free. Direct access available from I-95 and PA 63 (Woodhaven Road)
Torresdale: 331 ($2-PPA); Holmesburg Junction: 37 (Free - not including nearby street parking)

Third - SEPTA extnding service to Princeton is as likely as seeing them take control over METRA in Chicago.
The Princeton Shuttle (Dinky) track is accessible directly from the north and would require major construction
to add track capacity directly from the south. As specified a SEPTA train service extension to HML or PJC
would need track capacity increases and related construction to make this service reasonably practical.

Fourth: Mercer County - despite their membership in DVRPC - is in New Jersey. NJDOT or NJT would have to sign
off on any transit improvements in the County. They are not going to spend funds on a out-of-state transit company
especially if it goes up against improvement funding by and for NJT riders. SEPTA is not going to spend PA dollars
on any NJ side transit improvements without a partnership between the two agencies including Mercer County.
That is the prime reason there has not been significant improvement at the WT Station as a good example.

MACTRAXX

It would help if NJT build the connection to west Trenton from Trenton.

MACTRAXX wrote:Fourth: Mercer County - despite their membership in DVRPC - is in New Jersey. NJDOT or NJT would have to sign
off on any transit improvements in the County. They are not going to spend funds on a out-of-state transit company
especially if it goes up against improvement funding by and for NJT riders. SEPTA is not going to spend PA dollars
on any NJ side transit improvements without a partnership between the two agencies including Mercer County.
That is the prime reason there has not been significant improvement at the WT Station as a good example.

Youre right, the arbitrary invisible line is what is limiting common-sense and comprehensive travel options in the region.

However, DVRPC, not NJT or SEPTA is the one which has the hands in the federal cookie jar and is key to conducting a study that would justify the expenditure at Hamilton. Im sure Mercer would be happy to coordinate on a project that would encourage Philly workers to live in their County.

And thats where I especially disagree with this point:

First - SEPTA is NOT going to spend any money for any improvements at HML. A fifth track or any added parking for the limited amount of riders that travel towards Philadelphia will not be built with all the other options to ride train service towards Philadelphia. It would make sense to make improvements to West Trenton - a station that SEPTA does control - before there is any thought of plans for extra HML SEPTA service.

Any decision has to be backed by data. You need a study to see what will bring more riders to SEPTA, additional improvements at the isolated West Trenton Station, or my proposed plan for Hamilton.

Looking at a 10 car NJT train next to a 2 car SEPTA train at Trenton should be a wake up call that SEPTA is not maximizing their ridership potential. It is in my opinion that terminating at Hamilton would do quite well for SEPTA.

jamesinclair wrote:

MACTRAXX wrote:Fourth: Mercer County - despite their membership in DVRPC - is in New Jersey. NJDOT or NJT would have to sign
off on any transit improvements in the County. They are not going to spend funds on a out-of-state transit company
especially if it goes up against improvement funding by and for NJT riders. SEPTA is not going to spend PA dollars
on any NJ side transit improvements without a partnership between the two agencies including Mercer County.
That is the prime reason there has not been significant improvement at the WT Station as a good example.

Youre right, the arbitrary invisible line is what is limiting common-sense and comprehensive travel options in the region.

However, DVRPC, not NJT or SEPTA is the one which has the hands in the federal cookie jar and is key to conducting a study that would justify the expenditure at Hamilton. Im sure Mercer would be happy to coordinate on a project that would encourage Philly workers to live in their County.

And thats where I especially disagree with this point:

First - SEPTA is NOT going to spend any money for any improvements at HML. A fifth track or any added parking for the limited amount of riders that travel towards Philadelphia will not be built with all the other options to ride train service towards Philadelphia. It would make sense to make improvements to West Trenton - a station that SEPTA does control - before there is any thought of plans for extra HML SEPTA service.

Any decision has to be backed by data. You need a study to see what will bring more riders to SEPTA, additional improvements at the isolated West Trenton Station, or my proposed plan for Hamilton.

Looking at a 10 car NJT train next to a 2 car SEPTA train at Trenton should be a wake up call that SEPTA is not maximizing their ridership potential. It is in my opinion that terminating at Hamilton would do quite well for SEPTA.

JS:

1-There is little (if any) incentive to attract Philadelphia workers in Mercer County starting with the commute.
Those that work in Philadelphia benefit by lower real estate prices for starters to live in PA or in South Jersey.
Mercer County - especially the Princeton area - has become a NWK and NYP bound market with higher rents
and housing prices attracting upscale workers much more then Philadelphia bound commuters. That market
does extend into lower Bucks County to some extent where the two markets truly do overlap.

2-Where do you get the idea that Hamilton will attract a significant number of SEPTA Trenton Line commuters?
As for a study with numbers: I'm from Missouri - SHOW ME what data that you claim to have that could convince
me that this one station extension with the alternatives that I have noted is anything but an expensive boondoggle
that both NJT and SEPTA could ill afford...

As for the length of NJT and SEPTA trains that is like comparing apples with oranges to be putting it mildly.
NJT trains are longer to serve the North Jersey/NYC commuter market and SEPTA RRD - their longest trains
are 7 cars currently - serve the Philadelphia market. What you obviously do not understand is that Trenton is
the set "boundary line" between the two commuting markets and the NJ-PA state line helps mark this divide.

SP:

Interesting thought about connecting TRE to WTR but...You would need to construct a connecting electrified
track(s) either using the ROW of a older RDG rail route - or construct a new route. The pricetag would be high
and to me depending on the price a second track between WTR and Bound Brook - CSX's "demand" to NJT to
allow passenger service on this route - may be an alternative. With a restored or new route NIMBY opposition
for any new WTR-TRE connection unfortunately would be something to have to take into consideration here...

What we all should realize is that the current local rail service provided by both SEPTA and NJT through TRE
is adequate for the current time - BUT - through joint NJT/SEPTA trains between Philadelphia and New York
WILL be the answer someday to eliminating the Trenton transfer once and for all. That is the BEST option...

MACTRAXX

Cornwells heights has a lot of parking.

I really cannot see the need for this. Are there some numbers on how many people transfer at Trenton per day?

There were numbers in the Amtrak PIRAA doc a couple years back on the catchment of former Clockers now NJT service at Trenton and Hamilton. Approx half of the riders from those stations were from PA.

If anything we should be figuring out how NJT could run service to Cornwells Heights instead of just Trenton. Make use of GRUNDY and/or HOLMES to facilitate the turning of trains. Possibly reconfigure 0 track between Tacony and Holmesburg Jct as a pocket track to turn an NJT train (or two) for some distance depending on the freight needs of Conrail Shared Assets.

nomis wrote:There were numbers in the Amtrak PIRAA doc a couple years back on the catchment of former Clockers now NJT service at Trenton and Hamilton. Approx half of the riders from those stations were from PA.

If anything we should be figuring out how NJT could run service to Cornwells Heights instead of just Trenton. Make use of GRUNDY and/or HOLMES to facilitate the turning of trains. Possibly reconfigure 0 track between Tacony and Holmesburg Jct as a pocket track to turn an NJT train (or two) for some distance depending on the freight needs of Conrail Shared Assets.

Nomis:

Good thought about extending train service where it is truly needed and would be well utilized.

The former Amtrak Clocker Service attracted a core group of commuters that reside in lower and central
Bucks County that travel to NWK and NYP. NJT replaced these trains with more peak Trenton Express service
after Amtrak pulled out of that market. PA commuters then had to go to TRE and HML to access these NJT trains.

This ridership increased further after Amtrak raised their monthly pass rates to be substantially more then NJT's.
Amtrak once honored NJT commutation tickets on the Clockers in NJT territory and chipped in a percentage of
this service's operating costs - even to the extent of using ALP46 locomotives to haul these trains at one point.

Serving CWH is a good idea - but I would go the extra distance and run these trains through from Suburban Sta.
in this manner: There could be two limited stop through trains operated by NJT with a SEPTA partnership which
would serve 30th Street (upper); Cornwells Heights; Trenton; Hamilton; Princeton Junction then express to NWK.
One of the trains could add stops at New Brunswick and Newark Airport if there is a distinct demand. After this
service becomes more established add a second SEPTA TL stop at Bristol or Levittown again if demand warrants.
These two trains would be peak hour weekday trains and can be literally the start of through PHS-NYP service by
both NJT and SEPTA (with Amtrak's co-operation) on the NEC.

The problem with a NJT extension to CWH is where the equipment could be turned and if it must go all the way to
Holmes Interlocking to reverse it then makes sense for these trains to operate from PHS noting that upgrading the
CR paralleling freight track in that area - even though CRSA would benefit from this - might hamper their operation.

In closing this small step could very well lead the way to through Philadelphia-New York SEPTA-NJT service.
To me it is the right way to go...

MACTRAXX

I would be hesitant [initially] to go past HOLMES, as you incur more track capacity issues the further west you head towards ZOO and 30th St.

nomis wrote:There were numbers in the Amtrak PIRAA doc a couple years back on the catchment of former Clockers now NJT service at Trenton and Hamilton. Approx half of the riders from those stations were from PA.

If anything we should be figuring out how NJT could run service to Cornwells Heights instead of just Trenton. Make use of GRUNDY and/or HOLMES to facilitate the turning of trains. Possibly reconfigure 0 track between Tacony and Holmesburg Jct as a pocket track to turn an NJT train (or two) for some distance depending on the freight needs of Conrail Shared Assets.

Run njt to wayne junction or to powelton via the commuter tunnel. A huge chunk of those pa riders are along the rail line towards jenkintown not cornwells

Suburban Station wrote:

nomis wrote:There were numbers in the Amtrak PIRAA doc a couple years back on the catchment of former Clockers now NJT service at Trenton and Hamilton. Approx half of the riders from those stations were from PA.

If anything we should be figuring out how NJT could run service to Cornwells Heights instead of just Trenton. Make use of GRUNDY and/or HOLMES to facilitate the turning of trains. Possibly reconfigure 0 track between Tacony and Holmesburg Jct as a pocket track to turn an NJT train (or two) for some distance depending on the freight needs of Conrail Shared Assets.

Run njt to wayne junction or to powelton via the commuter tunnel. A huge chunk of those pa riders are along the rail line towards jenkintown not cornwells

Doesn't the SEPTA tracks have enough congestion? remember the recent Airport line changes?

nomis wrote:I would be hesitant [initially] to go past HOLMES, as you incur more track capacity issues the further west you head towards ZOO and 30th St.

Nomis:

The two trains that I propose would originate and terminate at Suburban Station using tracks 5-6-7 and overnight
there or in Powelton Yard for servicing. These would be 8 car consists of either A3 MU cars or locomotive hauled
single level equipment. These trains would either use SEPTA crews with a TRE crew change or qualified NJT crews
PHS-NYP operating straight through. This would probably require these NJT crews to qualify into Suburban Station
and 30th Street upper level unless they already are.

SS:

These two proposed trains would not operate past Suburban Station for track capacity reasons as ZS notes and
at one time there was a group of commuters that resided in the Jenkintown-Elkins Park area that did commute
to NWK and NYP using the "Wall Street" and "Crusader" RDC train service which was a joint RDG-CNJ service
and then under Conrail which was discontinued in the Summer of 1981. Both SEPTA and NJDOT/NJT funded
this train - which ran by way of West Trenton, Hopewell and Belle Meade to Bound Brook and the RVL to NWK.
These trains served Philadelphia by way of Reading Terminal - I rode them in their final years on occasion.

After these trains was discontinued NJT ran a one train a day service (AM north; PM south) to West Trenton which
connected there with a SEPTA WT local train for 12-16 months. After this change ridership dropped and this service
ended in 1982. This train was a two car Raritan based trainset using former CNJ P/P equipment and deadheaded
to and from WT before and after each run.

NJT has proposed reviving train service to West Trenton as an alternative to the NEC but the largest difference
today is that this single track route is now CSX prime freight line between Philadelphia and North Jersey - and
CSX has demanded a second track be funded and constructed before they would allow NJT WT service.

The main reason for serving Cornwells Heights is to take advantage of the ample parking that is available there
and with its road access it can become a "magnet" station drawing from a large surrounding area - in this case
lower Bucks County, eastern Montgomery County and the far northeast of Philadelphia County.

MACTRAXX

EuroStar wrote:I really cannot see the need for this. Are there some numbers on how many people transfer at Trenton per day?

ES: The Trenton transfer between SEPTA and NJT is significant enough to support on average hourly service
seven days a week. Both SEPTA and NJT have ridership numbers that show the distinct need for this transfer.

What I am not sure about is if these numbers are available online or internally from SEPTA and NJT.

MACTRAXX

The problem with running one seat combined SEPTA-NJT service between Suburban Station and NYP is that then you are encroaching on Amtrak's intercity market, specifically the Keystone Service. I don't think Amtrak would allow a cheaper state-supported service to undercut their profits on their own tracks. Keep in mind that Amtrak still has five NYP-centric rush hour trains stopping at Cornwells Heights (Trains 110, 640, 649, 193, and 655).

There is and will be no way to go directly from Philadelphia to NYP without setting foot on a New Jersey platform or riding Amtrak.