Buffalo Central Station under Amtrak (Past, Present, Future)

Greg Moore wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure what ramps have to do with it. For heights like that, you use elevators.

I can't off the top of my head, given a limited knowledge of stations, think of a single one that has an overhead bridge that uses ramps to get to the platforms. All are a combination of elevators and stairs.

I think there was a misunderstanding, considering someone posted a picture of the ramps from the upper train concourse to the platforms, so along the same lines, I'm not sure what those ramps have to do with it.

In the 80 feet between main station and train concourse where there is about 20 feet at best between each building and the horizontal rail clearance (because of the angle that's at opposing corners), you're going to build an elevator that lifts people up 8 feet, so they can wheel across the tracks, then use another elevator to drop 8 feet? Call me daft, but that seems like a lot to go into it and a pain for the end users. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not practical. I'm just laying out one of many hundreds of reasons BCT is not the glorious end-all answer people expect it to be (and to apparently be so while also still being fiscally reasonable). Sure, it looks cool to take pictures of other stations and say they can just do that here, but this isn't Sturtevant, and BCT is on the NRHP so I'm sure that anything that is added to fill this gap would have to maintain the Art-Deco look already established by the rest of the building and just by saying those two words together you've added a large amount to the price tag.

ctclark1 wrote: I think there was a misunderstanding, considering someone posted a picture of the ramps from the upper train concourse to the platforms, so along the same lines, I'm not sure what those ramps have to do with it.

I was the one who mentioned them as those ramps are already there and actually are the right ADA incline level already. Where the graffiti tag is on the trianglar shaped piece of building are the ramps, which go down to the each platform. I found this out in an account years ago by a wheelchair bound user of the TH&B Toronto service during the Amtrak operation of the BCT.
And BTW, Amtrak already owns the concorse building and land; and is separate from the main tower which has the National Historic Building designation.

I think you're combining two thoughts here.
If you want to gain 8' here (which I think all are in agreement you'd have to), that's a useful place for ramps and stairs. Yeah, you can do an elevator if you want, but from a limited look at the building and the scale, a competent architect could "solve" the problem of this bridge w/o more effort.

I was talking about escalators to existing platforms from this concourse (on the left side of your picture). Apparently there are already ADA compliant ramps there (which is surprising as they were built decades before the ADA was introduced, so I'd want the actual specs confirmed, but that's not a huge issue).

My simple point is, that solving the problem of bridging these two CSX tracks is trivial compared to all the other problems.
For example, someone mentioned asbestos abatement. That right there is going to probably cost FAR more than solving this particular problem.

Hell, the doughnuts and coffee for all the meetings with CSX to get them to agree to you rebuilding the concourse connection will be more than your actual architect fees.

John_Perkowski wrote:I hate to tell you this, but the building is no longer owned by Amtrak. It's been owned for 20 years by the Central Terminal Restoration Corporation. They, not Amtrak, get to decide if re-use includes a station at the property. On their website, it appears the Corporation is looking at adaptive re-use, not return to service.

http://buffalocentralterminal.org/restoration/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I got the very strong impression that if "Return to Service" meant an arrangement similar to what happens in Kansas City that CTRC would be fully supportive. If "Return to Service" meant everyone had to leave and Amtrak remained by its lonesome as the sole tenant I'm sure everyone would object to the obvious waste but I don't think that is what anyone has proposed.

Sorry, but Buffalo Central is simply in the wrong part of the wrong town for a project like this to move forth:

http://nytimes.com/2016/12/06/nyregion/ ... rport.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fair Use:

An L1649A Constellation would be parked outside the sweeping window wall that once overlooked Runway 4 Left/22 Right and Runway 13 Left/31 Right, air stairs at the ready. “It will look like the Connie has just pulled up,” Mr. Morse said, envisioning the scene......American Airlines has licensed the use of the T.W.A. name and logo. “It’s a wonderful tribute to T.W.A. and the many employees of American Airlines who came from the T.W.A. family,” Matt Miller, a spokesman for American, said.

Well, I guess the air transport industry thinks they have been around long enough to start preserving their heritage.

For those around here who equate flying with a Middle Seat on a 737 that departs from a shopping mall (after an invasive shakedown), this project will give a taste of what those of us around here who "knew it when..." experienced.

http://buffalonews.com/2016/12/20/cuomo ... undraiser/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wonder if this is related to Buffalo Central. They will decide on reuse later on. Looks like Buffalo is getting attention now at a minimum.

It's related to Cuomo and his re-election. Period.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:
Well, I guess the air transport industry thinks they have been around long enough to start preserving their heritage.

You can get rides on Ford Tri-Motors via the EAA (among others). There's still a few DC-3s kicking around out there, too. The only Boeing product with recips I've ever been on had a B in front of its model number.

"For the man who has everything", the Collings Foundation I think still offers rides in an F-4 Phantom. $12.5k

The aerospace industry, at least in the US*, has preserved a LOT of its history, and there's a lot of it still flying. Not too many airliners though (Travolta's 707 I think just got scrapped).

Unless it blows smoke and involves steam, there's really no RR preservation in the US.

For those around here who equate flying with a Middle Seat on a 737 that departs from a shopping mall (after an invasive shakedown), this project will give a taste of what those of us around here who "knew it when..." experienced.

I don't find the security line too bad. Passengers who act like they've never seen a metal detector before are more of an issue than the TSA - I travel with film a lot, so I'm always getting the hand inspection for that. They don't complain in the US - in Europe, you don't get hand inspection of film.

*RAF Cosford has a Comet, and the test section from the pressurization investigation. A few V bombers and a Lightning, and that's basically it. OB rail content: 4 car DMU from Birmingham New Street to the local stop (middle of nowhere). Return trip to Euston was via Wolverhampton, an unexpected gem of a detour.

BCS? You can't save them all, sadly. If it makes no sense, it makes no sense. That's an awfully huge station for 10 trains a day...

Here's the local perspective on the future of the terminal ...

BUFFALO, N.Y. -- It's been nearly 40 years since a Christmas tree was last lit at the Buffalo Central Terminal. But if Congressman Brian Higgins has his way there will be many more to come.

"I think this is a beautiful structure. At one time 200 passenger trains came into Buffalo every single day. And the new train station in Buffalo should be right here," said Rep. Brian Higgins, (D-Buffalo).

Higgins along with more than 500 people braved the cold Saturday to get a look at the terminal and rally support for a new Amtrak station to move into the once-vibrant structure.

"The reasons why New York Central built this station here in 1929 is the same reason why the Amtrak should be located here again," said Fillmore District resident Greg Olma.

Olma said putting the train in downtown like some are suggesting would be another error.

"In 1979 they made a mistake and put the train station in Depew without access to rapid transit or buses or anything. Don't make that mistake again. Do something that's going to last for another couple of generations or for the future, and this is the perfect location for it," he said.

"The waterfront, Larkinville and this building are all in my district, and those are wonderful, wonderful achievements, but I am 100 percent in favor of this location for the new Amtrak station, which completely makes a tremendous amount of sense," said

Fillmore District Councilman David Franczyk, a Democrat.

Higgins said there's $25 million in federal funds available for a new station with the possibility of matching state funds. Higgins said the money won't be available until 2018, but it's important to determine a location as soon as possible.

$25 million is a good start. I was very impressed by the interior condition of the station as seen in the video.

Nasadowsk wrote: BCS? You can't save them all, sadly. If it makes no sense, it makes no sense. That's an awfully huge station for 10 trains a day...

I keep forgetting Buffalo sees 10x a day. It's still not the right size, but BCS is closer to right-sized than KCUS (6x/day) or SPUD (2x/day plus LRT), both of which have had massive and loving restorations recently. Tell you what - if (incoming Senate Minority Leader) Chucky can induce a company or agency to lease the upper floors, I'd support moving Amtrak back into the concourse. And also, get Buffalo a dedicated bus line to downtown that hits the LSL arrival times at O-dark 30.

I'd also like to see Buffalo hit 12-14 a day.

Cuomo really wants to help Buffalo, connecting it to more locations I think is key.
Even if it's just some trains start/terminate in Buffalo.
Perhaps another daily Toronto train?
Or something. Buffalo needs a bit more.

Worth noting that most of the other proposed stations are "through" locations only. One of the advantages for the terminal is that it could ... wait for it ... function as a terminal!

As an outsider looking in when I see public events with elected officials saying, "it's not in my district but I strongly support it ... " that's when you know they've been told by a lot of other people that this is something their constituents in the community broadly support.

I think this station is going to be the next "grand restoration" along similar lines as Kansas City, St. Paul Union Depot, Chicago Union Station and Washington Union Station. Unlike Kansas City and St. Paul I think there is a very serious chance that Amtrak and the State of New York would use this facility to anchor new service.

Greg Moore wrote:I'd also like to see Buffalo hit 12-14 a day.

Cuomo really wants to help Buffalo, connecting it to more locations I think is key.
Even if it's just some trains start/terminate in Buffalo.
Perhaps another daily Toronto train?
Or something. Buffalo needs a bit more.

Overnite train to New York ?

David,

I would guess that they might just consider extending the Empire Service trains one by one.

This is starting to feel a lot like the situation in Virginia with the Richmond station and the Northeast Regional trains.

My plan would be a bit different. I don't think there's enough traffic to extend to many of the Empire Service trains, maybe 2 more?

But I'd extend the earliest one that already arrives at Buffalo to points further west, like Cleveland (or perhaps further).

I'd probably add another Amtrak/Via train to Toronto. I bet you could pick up some local traffic right there. (So that adds two trains a day right there, one each way. Perhaps two more.)

And if I had my way, I'd turn 48/448, 49/449 into two separate trains one, strictly BOS-CHI, the other NYP-CHI and make sure they arrive at BUF at 1-2 hour difference. This gives more flexibility all around and between ALB-BUF they can hit up different stations.
And if you can do this, if you can, route one through Detroit. And since you need the infrastructure for that, add a day train to Detroit.

Then perhaps a Buffalo/Southern Tier train? I don't know if there still exists a good route, but something like Buffalo, Elmira, Binghamton, to Port Jervis and then NYP. - Slow, but breaks new ground.

Yes, I'm thinking 20 years (or more most likely) out.