Bike Policy

ryanov wrote:
With regard to Hoboken, isn't Hoboken an ADA station due to the wheelchair lifts?

The public timetable specifically prohibits boarding with bikes at Hoboken Terminal.

speedbird wrote:As per this policy, there was some contention between me and a trainman in NYP back the Saturday before Easter. Holiday he says, not according to the timetable I said. Graciously, he allowed me passage to SEC.

Don't forget, the conductor has the final say whether to allow bikes on the train or not, regardless of the day.

Something I would point out is that when the original bike policy was adopted in the early 90s, high-level platform--at least on the Hoboken side--were a rarity, and center-door cars were non-existent. On the older Comets, which dominated the division at that time, the handicapped seats, which could be folded up to accommodate bikes, were directly adjacent to the vestibules, so bikes did not have to be dragged up the aisle.

Having read these comments I can see now why with the handicapped/bike area in the middle of the Comet Vs, adjacent to the center doors, it can be a problem for bikes when they can only be loaded from the vestibule ends.

Bike cars are used on Metrolink and from what I've heard they're a big success. That said, I don't believe they would work here.

What I think the policy should be:

-Same # per car restrictions
-No rush hour trains
-No summer weekend NJCL trains (defined as weekend before Memorial Day to Columbus Day)
-No special event service (Meadowlands service, major parades, etc)
-Conductor discretion other times

Why not summer weekends on the Coast Line?

Too broad of a restriction. There are LOTS of folks who do not have a car and ride their bicycles too and from work, especially from Red Bank to Matawan and vice versa, etc. If/when Perth Amboy becomes high level there are going to be LOADS of bikes that will get on there.

I don't see a problem with bikes, and I never really had a problem with them either. Get the bike up and down yourself. Don't knock any body out, and if the areas by the vestbule are full, then you can't get on...sorry

IMO, NJT should be encouraging bike usage, as it could really cause an increase in ridership with people who might not even consider taking the train now. And im not talking about folks who use their bikes as their only means of transport. I mean folks who could bike to the station and then from their arriving station to their job, or for recreation. Also, Ive taken the train with my bicycle to shorten my trip, as it was getting late and I didn't feel like riding home along the rocky Henry Hudson trail in the dark along the Bayshore in Highlands.

I also think that removing a row of seats from the Comet 2s especially as well as the other model cars, would help out with bikes, as well as luggage, etc from Newark Airport.

BTW, that bike car picture posted its a bit much - there doesn't need to be a dozens of bike racks built into the car. A car like that is a waste of space, becuase you can't even have standees or luggage in that area on a crowded train. A car with a regular row of seats on one side, and fold up seats along the other wall would be just fine, as well as some areas with tiedowns and grab irons.

As people become more "green", and gas prices continue to climb (although it is nice lately...keep going down!!! wooot!!!) its going to become more and more of an issue, so instead of fighting it, NJT should (and it looks like they are, according to the article) find a way to make the regulations common sense and work the best they can for EVERYONE involved.

I say that if the train is full that bike riders can put their bike in the cab with the engineer!

sullivan1985 wrote:I say that if the train is full that bike riders can put their bike in the cab with the engineer!

hahahhaha

But then "the crew lounge" (and what a luxurious place it is......) isn't going to be available!!!

Anyway, Ive always felt that strollers were a bigger PITA than bikes, especially now with the MLs, but there is no policy or restrictions on them?
"Im sorry, you can't board this train with your baby" hahahahaha yea, okay. At least if someone drops a bike, oh darn....sucks to be them. If someone drops a stroller - oh boy...that has the potential get ugly real quick.

And yes, people drop strollers, ive seen it. Also seen them flip over, flip sideways and the best is a high level platform when they think that the front wheels will just magically go over the gap. Guess what....they don't, and the whole thing flips over.....luckily ive never had to deal with a baby getting injured, but the morons pushing it.....well...sometimes they aren't so lucky and injure themselves........duh

Idiot Railfan wrote:Something I would point out is that when the original bike policy was adopted in the early 90s, high-level platform--at least on the Hoboken side--were a rarity, and center-door cars were non-existent. On the older Comets, which dominated the division at that time, the handicapped seats, which could be folded up to accommodate bikes, were directly adjacent to the vestibules, so bikes did not have to be dragged up the aisle.

I recall the 1990s bike policy. It was "standard frame bicycles are permitted only during off-peak hours on the Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast Line, Raritan Valley Line and Main/Bergen County Line." M&E was added in 1997 after Midtown Direct (and with the introduction of Comet IVs).

The only center door cars in the early 1990s were the Arrows and (then) new Comet IIIs. Why the Main/Bergen was included intially seems odd.

R36 Combine Coach wrote:

Idiot Railfan wrote:Something I would point out is that when the original bike policy was adopted in the early 90s, high-level platform--at least on the Hoboken side--were a rarity, and center-door cars were non-existent. On the older Comets, which dominated the division at that time, the handicapped seats, which could be folded up to accommodate bikes, were directly adjacent to the vestibules, so bikes did not have to be dragged up the aisle.

I recall the 1990s bike policy. It was "standard frame bicycles are permitted only during off-peak hours on the Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast Line, Raritan Valley Line and Main/Bergen County Line." M&E was added in 1997 after Midtown Direct (and with the introduction of Comet IVs).

The only center door cars in the early 1990s were the Arrows and (then) new Comet IIIs. Why the Main/Bergen was included intially seems odd.

Part of the operating agreement with Metro-North perhaps?

sixty-six wrote: Don't forget, the conductor has the final say whether to allow bikes on the train or not, regardless of the day.

Which even as the "conductor" you've got to realize is obnoxious. You could show up with a bike, be following the rules, and be told on a conductor's whim that you can't board with a bike (this has happened to friends of mine that ars members of this forum).

ryanov wrote:

sixty-six wrote: Don't forget, the conductor has the final say whether to allow bikes on the train or not, regardless of the day.

Which even as the "conductor" you've got to realize is obnoxious. You could show up with a bike, be following the rules, and be told on a conductor's whim that you can't board with a bike (this has happened to friends of mine that ars members of this forum).

Doesn't matter. Current bike policy allows for conductor discretion.

It sounds like the best solution is a bike car. You got comet 3's collecting dust & arrows soon to be retired why not convert some of those? The only extra trouble would be allocating them on which trains, and depending on the train it would need to be up near the cab car (hoboken trains).

No bikes the day before holidays is retarded i'm sorry. What if i'm a student & i just want to take a bike home for a few days? TCNJ has dorms and connects to trenton station via bus, rutgers has practically their own station at new brunswick & princeton has their shuttle, and there's the connections from philly in camden and trenton and west trenton.

Folding bikes are fine if your primary concern is space savings when not in use, however they suck when it comes to riding. The geometry is all wrong you can't go very fast and you can't really bike on the boardwalk or around the beach towns with them.

At low level stations bikers can simply board last at the ADA end of the car, if it's a center door car only train then they have to wait for next train. That seems like a fair compromise to me.

Some bikers are just as clueless as other irritating passenger types, but that does not mean they should be denied carriage. And so what if a few cars are a pain to shuffle around, if it gets more people riding then there you go.

Jtgshu wrote:Why not summer weekends on the Coast Line?

Too broad of a restriction. There are LOTS of folks who do not have a car and ride their bicycles too and from work, especially from Red Bank to Matawan and vice versa, etc. If/when Perth Amboy becomes high level there are going to be LOADS of bikes that will get on there.

I don't see a problem with bikes, and I never really had a problem with them either. Get the bike up and down yourself. Don't knock any body out, and if the areas by the vestbule are full, then you can't get on...sorry

I slightly disagree with you on this one JT. The side of the train says NJ TRANSIT, not ALLIED VAN LINES. The policy is overly broad so it eliminates the problem of hordes of bike riders taking seats and space from passengers. Without that policy, you'll pit families against cyclists against the handicapped versus someone who feels entitled to the space "since they were there first."

Additionally,here's one word that should send shivers down your spine if you were in the legal department: Liability. Who's taking the weight if there's a conflict? Who takes the weight if something happens the bike while it is at one end of the car while the passenger is at the other? Who takes the weight if the passenger FALLS while standing next to their bike? Who eats it on a crowded train and the bike isn't properly secured? When someone twists their ankle carrying the bike up the stairs, do you really think that "it is their own fault" will stand up in court?

I'll bet real money the lawyers discussed all of this when the current policy was drawn up. I'll bet even more it is being discussed as a new one is considered. Ultimately, no matter what happens, it will fall on the front line employee....the conductor.

I can see the letters being written now:

The conductor made me move and I feel picked on because he/she could have made someone else move ....

The conductor didn't accommodate me and my bike because....

I got hit in the head with a handlebar and I need medical attention+40 million because I panic every time I hear a bike horn....

I was loading my bike and fell on myself. There were 110 conductors on a 3 car train and they parted like the Red Sea.....

and when this goes before the judge and jury, we know the outcome:



Unfortunately, this becomes necessary:

ryanov wrote:

sixty-six wrote: Don't forget, the conductor has the final say whether to allow bikes on the train or not, regardless of the day.

Which even as the "conductor" you've got to realize is obnoxious. You could show up with a bike, be following the rules, and be told on a conductor's whim that you can't board with a bike (this has happened to friends of mine that ars members of this forum).

The policy allows for conductor's discretion because they are the ones that ultimately know the makeup of their train. They know at a certain point how much space is available for bikes, wheelchair etc passage. This especially rings true for the luggage space challenged double decker cars.

You are 110 percent correct Thirdrail7....butttttttttttttttttttttt....

.... unfortunately, those same issues come into play with folks boarding at EWR with luggage....if anything thats more of an "Allied Van Lines" situation than bicycles ever will be! haha If there was more room freed up in the cars, some of these issues would be resolved or at least eased. There wouldn't necessarily be conflicts with disabled vs. bicycles, as there would be more space, but again, you have that same argument with the disabled and folks going to/from EWR and folks with strollers and folks that went to "Shoppers World" and have 40 huge a$$ shopping bags taking up all the room. Strollers, carrying luggage and shopping bags can all cause trip and falls and sprained ankles as well.

However, with bicycles there is an opportunity to create a policy that can be clear and common sense and understandable, and some of those issues can be spelled out and resolved and liability limited. Like boarding the train, like being forced to move if a wheelchair passenger needs that space, etc. NJT won't be able to spell out these conditions and ground rules and limit their own liability really on anything else, like luggage, strollers or shopping bags, all other very "annoying" things that people board the train with that take up space that could be otherwise used for other passengers, and could ultimately cause injuries to them or others.

I think its obvious that NJT has moved on from being a commuter railroad. It really is not a commuter railroad any more, and hasn't been for some time. Its a regional passenger railroad. That means that people other than the "easy to handle" commuters ride the trains. They carry with them all the things (and in some cases, more) that they might on an Amtrak train. And they are forced to do this on equipment that wasn't designed for really anything other than commuters. There needs to be some additional standing/luggage/bicycle/stuff/stroller/whatever room created in some of the cars because there is often now a point where its affecting dwell times at stops like EWR because these people are trying to squish in and there simply isn't any room for them or their bags, and injuries can and are caused by people trying to shove too big of a bag in the luggage rack and it falls down on someone or they hurt their arms/shoulders/wrists trying to shove it up on the rack.

BTW, on my trip home tonight, I counted at least a dozen bicycles get on and off our train with no incidents over the course of the trip. This is a normal number, and about the same number on my inbound as well. This isn't always one or two random bicyclists like it might be on some trains on some lines. There can be a significant amount of riders on one particular train and overall on a line as well.

Jtgshu wrote:You are 110 percent correct Thirdrail7....butttttttttttttttttttttt....

.... unfortunately, those same issues come into play with folks boarding at EWR with luggage....if anything thats more of an "Allied Van Lines" situation than bicycles ever will be! haha If there was more room freed up in the cars, some of these issues would be resolved or at least eased. There wouldn't necessarily be conflicts with disabled vs. bicycles, as there would be more space, but again, you have that same argument with the disabled and folks going to/from EWR and folks with strollers and folks that went to "Shoppers World" and have 40 huge a$$ shopping bags taking up all the room. Strollers, carrying luggage and shopping bags can all cause trip and falls and sprained ankles as well.

However, with bicycles there is an opportunity to create a policy that can be clear and common sense and understandable, and some of those issues can be spelled out and resolved and liability limited. Like boarding the train, like being forced to move if a wheelchair passenger needs that space, etc. NJT won't be able to spell out these conditions and ground rules and limit their own liability really on anything else, like luggage, strollers or shopping bags, all other very "annoying" things that people board the train with that take up space that could be otherwise used for other passengers, and could ultimately cause injuries to them or others.

I think its obvious that NJT has moved on from being a commuter railroad. It really is not a commuter railroad any more, and hasn't been for some time. Its a regional passenger railroad. That means that people other than the "easy to handle" commuters ride the trains. They carry with them all the things (and in some cases, more) that they might on an Amtrak train. And they are forced to do this on equipment that wasn't designed for really anything other than commuters. There needs to be some additional standing/luggage/bicycle/stuff/stroller/whatever room created in some of the cars because there is often now a point where its affecting dwell times at stops like EWR because these people are trying to squish in and there simply isn't any room for them or their bags, and injuries can and are caused by people trying to shove too big of a bag in the luggage rack and it falls down on someone or they hurt their arms/shoulders/wrists trying to shove it up on the rack.

BTW, on my trip home tonight, I counted at least a dozen bicycles get on and off our train with no incidents over the course of the trip. This is a normal number, and about the same number on my inbound as well. This isn't always one or two random bicyclists like it might be on some trains on some lines. There can be a significant amount of riders on one particular train and overall on a line as well.

I love when families board with a big non-folding stroller and 10 huge shopping bags & just expect everything to fit and be fine. Now, on one hand this is irritating & can create tripping hazards or take up seat space etc. On the other hand the train is there to serve a purpose and if you purchase a ticket you've paid to utilize it. I guess the point is where's that line? Why not restrict anyone with over-sized carry on items t the discretion of the conductor? If you want to bring something that might not quite fit the penalty shouldn't be banned from boarding simply you get lower priority & have to wait for a less crowded train.

I know septa isn't njt and is in a different state, but bikes are allowed on all non-peak trains as far as i can remember. Also low platforms make up a large percent of the system, which also connects to busses which all have bike racks on the front. If SEPTA can do it and maintain some semblance of on time performance NJT should be able to do same, it's not like the equipment is that much different.

25Hz wrote:I love when families board with a big non-folding stroller and 10 huge shopping bags & just expect everything to fit and be fine. Now, on one hand this is irritating & can create tripping hazards or take up seat space etc. On the other hand the train is there to serve a purpose and if you purchase a ticket you've paid to utilize it. I guess the point is where's that line? Why not restrict anyone with over-sized carry on items t the discretion of the conductor? If you want to bring something that might not quite fit the penalty shouldn't be banned from boarding simply you get lower priority & have to wait for a less crowded train.

I know septa isn't njt and is in a different state, but bikes are allowed on all non-peak trains as far as i can remember. Also low platforms make up a large percent of the system, which also connects to busses which all have bike racks on the front. If SEPTA can do it and maintain some semblance of on time performance NJT should be able to do same, it's not like the equipment is that much different.

It'd be faster to ride the bicycle than to carry it on SEPTA. Regarding your earlier advocation of a bike car, the thought of hauling an extra 60 ton car to carry 1000 pounds of bicycles and other mobility accessories (not wheelchairs) just makes me mad. That said, it's probably a good idea to get more Americans out of their cars, considering the way most of us prefer to travel. I'd be a lot more forgiving if use of such a car meant a small fee imposed on oversize bicycles and strollers, so it didn't come directly from the pocket of the commuter agency.

You did hit on one of my pet peeves though - oversize strollers. I understand wanting to protect your kid, I really do. I don't understand using a four-foot-wide, six-foot-long M1A1 baby tank with crawler tracks and climate control for little precious. A lightweight folding stroller or wearable child carrier would be far less of a hassle for everyone. Even those stupid backpack kid leashes are better than carting your six-year-old around in a stroller the size of Kansas!