Another stupid I mean impatient truck driver vs train

Could be many reasons why... might not be road worthy, may of had air brake damage, could be awaiting a Light engine move..... or awaiting some kind of FRA wavior to go to repair.

Whenever a train is involved in an accident, the engineer (& crew) should not get off the locomotive. State and Local police have no jurisdiction over
railroad accidents. Federal law covers interstate commerce. This supercedes state and local law. Most police agencies erroneously think that they can question and detain railroad employees who are involved in
grade crossing accidents or tresspasser fatalities.

Employees should wait for a road foreman/trainmaster for questioning
and release. Unfortunately the company will D&A the crew to see
if they can be implicated in any way.

amtrakhogger wrote:Whenever a train is involved in an accident, the engineer (& crew) should not get off the locomotive. State and Local police have no jurisdiction over
railroad accidents. Federal law covers interstate commerce. This supercedes state and local law. Most police agencies erroneously think that they can question and detain railroad employees who are involved in
grade crossing accidents or tresspasser fatalities.

Employees should wait for a road foreman/trainmaster for questioning
and release. Unfortunately the company will D&A the crew to see
if they can be implicated in any way.

You are confusing regulation with investigation. The commerce clause places the regulation of interstate commerce within the purview of the federal government but investigatory actions are not regulatory in nature. It is your right to refuse to speak with investigators and your union may recommend such a course of action but that is also a right that can be exercised by every and any motorist in a simple car accident as well. No one can be forced to answer questions in this country and it has nothing to do with interstate commerce or federal jurisdiction. A locomotive is not a federal sanctuary and one can be arrested for criminal violations by a police officer on railroad property just as anywhere else, they just can not enforce FRA regulations. If you remember the Amtrak-Conrail collision back in 1987 the engineer Ricky Gates was charged by state officials with vehicular homicide under Maryland law and he served state prison time there. A blanket immunity from all actions does not exist.

As a side note there are only two federal agencies which can and will investigate grade crossing accidents, the FRA and the NTSB. In the year 2004 there were 3,045 grade crossing accidents in the United States. The FRA investigated 9 of these, and the NTSB only investigated a total of 7 between the years 2000 and 2004. All of the rest were investigated by state and local police.

Not to stray to far......But Crew Members that talk to Local and state Police had some how recieved points and faults on their automobile insureance for giving the Police their Personal Information such as Drivers licences and Personal info......I also have known of a few that the local police came on board and arrested the crew Before any RR officials showed and The case went to Court and the Police lost......


a little farther.... the railroad owns each and every railroad crossing. So Technicaly to Violate any Safety warnings signs or signals on a grade crossing is Trespassing...it is a Privilage to cross the RR right of way.

With all due respect you are talking about urban legends that run rampant throughout the railroad industry. Train crews do not like to talk to officials after incidents and there are some good reasons for this, however many a false rationale has taken form as a result. There are some states in which an engineer could be arrested for refusing to identify him or herself dependant upon the statutory authority in that particular state, just as a motorist who got rearended in traffic can be arrested for refusing to produce identification regardless of whether they committed any violation at all. The state has an interest in documenting incidents involving property damage and or personal injury. As for both members of the crew being arrested, what would the conductor be arrested for, watching? Tall tales of railroading.

Regarding a grade crossing it is not "private property" when the gates go down, and a violation of the warning signals is no more trespassing than running a red light into an intersection. The public way extends across the railroad grade just as the railroad ROW extends across the public way. For more information on this go to the link;

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/86

TPR37777 wrote:With all due respect you are talking about urban legends that run rampant throughout the railroad industry. Train crews do not like to talk to officials after incidents and there are some good reasons for this, however many a false rationale has taken form as a result. There are some states in which an engineer could be arrested for refusing to identify him or herself dependant upon the statutory authority in that particular state, just as a motorist who got rearended in traffic can be arrested for refusing to produce identification regardless of whether they committed any violation at all. The state has an interest in documenting incidents involving property damage and or personal injury. As for both members of the crew being arrested, what would the conductor be arrested for, watching? Tall tales of railroading.

Regarding a grade crossing it is not "private property" when the gates go down, and a violation of the warning signals is no more trespassing than running a red light into an intersection. The public way extends across the railroad grade just as the railroad ROW extends across the public way. For more information on this go to the link;

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/86

There was a Selkirk NY crew that was arrested in Ashland Ma about 6 years ago....I was there and they arrested them the Crew Conductor his trainee an Engineer and His trainee for" Hampering an investigation and not co-operating" and the RR officials just stood there. It was later thrown out due to federal and interstate Mumbo-jumbo and the local Police were sited for some kind of use of Force.

As for not talking to a state or local Offical My Roadforman stood there and smoked about a pack of smokes and did not mutter a word as the Local Police tried to Grill Me for over an Hour at the sceane on a Fatality 3 years ago in W.Springfield Ma...do to a Trespasser...There is nothing legondary about this only in occuring nightmares

I dont know if its just Bad Luck or what but in my 12 years of Service with the Railroads I have had my share or been involved with as part of a crew many Horrible and unbelieveable incidences some Fortunite employees with a lifetime of service only hear about.....only "Nostradumas" could predict You name it its way off from going by the book or rules..Ha

CCRR = Grade Crossing accident w/car
BCLR = Grade Crossing accident w/10 wheel Dump truck
NECR = Grade Crossing accident W/ loaded Fuel truck...Fireball Explosion
Conrail = Fatality Readville Ma
CSX = Major Derailment mainline due to equipment and track failer
CSX= Fatality w. Springfield
CSX Fatality suicide w. Brookfield

not to mention several Mark off Investagtions and a couple of employee Discrimination Investagations between crew members...its a Damn "Payton place"

I was just responding to your broad statements concerning limits of jurisdiction, insurance surcharges, and the legal status of crossings. I am certain that there have been incidents where police officers have reacted inappropriately, however that is by no means limited to railroad accidents nor should they refelect upon the entire profession. In general local law enforcement officials know very little about railroad matters and to the uninitiated the refusal of the crew to make a statement may seem curious and or indicative of wrongdoing. However the right to remain silent is one that is routinely encountered in police work and should not give rise to such ramifications, including "grilling". There is a huge distinction between refusing to make a statement and refusing to identify oneself that must be noted, the latter being a crime in some jurisdictions even for an engineer. The surcharge story you mentioned earlier has prompted engineers in some instances to refuse to produce identifying documentation which in turn resulted in the escalation of tensions. Police recruit training in communities with active railroads should include training specific to such investigations but the vast majority do not. Let us hope you never find yourself in such a scenario again, and if you do you encounter investigators of a higher caliber.

Not to mention the MBCR/MBTA Passenger Train v a low level trailer in Franklin at the Fisher St. Crossing, thus causing the control coach (yes, it was in push mode, engine was at the other end) to suffer serious damage, it's future somewhat uncertain.

The trucker used a road that he shouldn't have been using.

ya...That crossing only had "No" lowboy trucks allowed signs on one side of the crossing of coarse not the side that the truck driver was crossing

That's true, the lowboy truck should have known to gom on Union Street or even avoid all crossings and take E. Central Street (Rte 140) to gfet around all crossings in Franklin.

CSX Engineer 98 wrote:[only "Nostradumas" could predict

LMAO , sorry, had to laugh as I haven't heard that nick-name in so long.

CSX Eningeer 98 wrote:CSX Fatality suicide w. Brookfield"

But wasn't the person already dead, placed in a tarp and then put in the gauge before being hit?!?

CSX Engineer 98 wrote:not to mention several Mark off Investagtions and a couple of employee Discrimination Investagations between crew members...its a Damn "Payton place

Fortunately the "Midnight Cowboy" was finally fired a couple months ago. He was called for MI-3 as the brakeman and as he was talking to his conductor and engineer in the trailer @ Middleboro he saw MI-2 moving, flew out of the trailer, across the MBCR main without looking and jumped onto the engine while it was moving, all witnessed by the TrainMaster. Why did he think it was his train since he was chatting with his own crew inside?!?!? DUH!!! MI-2 dropped him off in the middle of Taunton, lmao.

Trust me, with the new breed around these parts, you shouldn't be anxious to get back. It's scary.

CSX Conductor wrote:

CSX Engineer 98 wrote:[only "Nostradumas" could predict

LMAO , sorry, had to laugh as I haven't heard that nick-name in so long.

CSX Eningeer 98 wrote:CSX Fatality suicide w. Brookfield"

But wasn't the person already dead, placed in a tarp and then put in the gauge before being hit?!?

CSX Engineer 98 wrote:not to mention several Mark off Investagtions and a couple of employee Discrimination Investagations between crew members...its a Damn "Payton place

Fortunately the "Midnight Cowboy" was finally fired a couple months ago. He was called for MI-3 as the brakeman and as he was talking to his conductor and engineer in the trailer @ Middleboro he saw MI-2 moving, flew out of the trailer, across the MBCR main without looking and jumped onto the engine while it was moving, all witnessed by the TrainMaster. Why did he think it was his train since he was chatting with his own crew inside?!?!? DUH!!! MI-2 dropped him off in the middle of Taunton, lmao.

Trust me, with the new breed around these parts, you shouldn't be anxious to get back. It's scary.

That is why I mentioned My "NickName"

And I know a few of the "Brookfields Suicide" former high school Students I met through Motocycle racing...Seems she was a depressed Teacher took a bunch of pills dressed up in her husbands clothes and layed in the tracks with a tarp over her....See didin't feel a thing at 50mph... RIP

and on my friend...the "git-y-up cowboy" no wonder why I dont get any calls in the middle of the night anymore asking what should I do or what claim do I write-up am I entitled to this.... at 2:00 am

he was a great person off the property but I would break out in a sweat and get a bad headacke when he showed up on the job.

True story........I got him as my regular conductor on the ML job out of Beacon "Cab" to franingham lite engines to Brookfield. And on the first night he proceeded to clear the Emptys from the site. then tighed on to the loads on spot, cleared them and then tighed on to the loads out on the mainline hang a marker on them some 2 miles away after getting the train together he noticed that the Racks had loads in them It was light out by then....... He couldn't remember that #1 we came up lite engines. #2 the cars on the Main were the Loads for the facility to spot..... all this after he had been with the Railroad for some 1.5 or 2 years.......Oh boy

we didn't make it to far that trip......

he used to say to me "I can't wait to run them engines" when do you think i'll go to school cause I have some family down there i haven't seen in a while....?

Later

A grade crossing accident in and of itself is not cause for D&A testing by the company. If there is probable cause, i.e. the crew smells of alcohol or something, that's a different story.

An engineer involved in an incident should NOT give the police his drivers license. THAT is where some of the insurance issues come up, as some cops don't know any better and write the whole incident up as a routine Motor Vehicle Accident. Next thing you know the engineer's insurance rate goes up. There is NO requirement for you to even have your drivers license with you - if asked, say it's in your locker at the home terminal.

I remember hearing an incident many, many years ago in the Conrail era, where the Ashland Police (or maybe it was Framingham) decided to give speeding tickets to freight trains. Incident never made it to court either.

J

Here are some of Adam Sullivan's photos of the Westford MA grade crossing accident in Westfield MA on 20-28-06.

http://amsphotography.fotopic.net/c1122159.html

Unreal!

Paul