Amtrak Pioneer Route

David Benton wrote:Do we know this is the way the railroads think today , as opposed to 20 -30 years ago ???

Personally, I think it outrageous that a private company should determine what national transport policy is. A corporation is chartered for public good. Government has precedence. No doubt that is wicked European socialism and all that, but it's the only way the US will get a proper passenger system.

perhaps its more the govt not willing to pay adequate compensation to the railroads to run the pasenger trains . or to provide free access and allow competition in the freight market .

GBN, Gilbert,

I don't disagree with any of your points vis a vis the economics of the LD system. Logic is on your side. But I'm one of those guys who likes to ride the train simply to ride the train. So any encouragement from Congress that says they aren't bound by the 5 year rule that you cite is euphoria for me! RE: the regulatory climate. You're right again, I think; but carry the thought to the next step: regulation means loopholes which means any enterprising person can figure a way forward. Can't we find a rainbow in here somewhere?

TB

David Benton wrote:Do we know this is the way the railroads think today , as opposed to 20 -30 years ago ???

I can't speak in general, but in terms of the Pioneer route I believe I am safe to say that Union Pacific is rather happy that it no longer has to contend with Amtrak on its busy single-track route east of Portland.

UP was not too happy when Amtrak wanted to use the Pioneer as a major M&E route - thus creating direct competition with UP (since many of the same goods could also be hauled in intermodal trailers, and the line is a major intermodal route for UP serving not just Portland, but also Vancouver, Kalama, Longview, Olympia, Tacoma and Seattle.

A few years ago a UP track project at East Portland resulted in the elimination of the crossover allowing trains to go from the Graham Line (this is the route from East Portland, along I-84 to Troutdale, as opposed to the northerly Kenton Line which parallels Sandy and Columbia Boulevards, and is used by trains destined to the Port of Portland and points in Washington) to the Steel Bridge and thus Union Station. Any attempt to restore the Pioneer will require reinstalling this track - and likely at public, not UP, expense.

The 100 year lease of the Steel Bridge to ODOT is almost up and many TriMet riders (who are now the primary user of the bridge, with both buses and MAX on the upper deck) are not too happy with frequent malfunctions of the bridge's lift span. I could imagine quite easily that since UP is restricted to two round-trips per day north of Union Station on BNSF trackage to the jointly owned (via Portland Terminal Railroad, 60% owned by UP) Lake Yard, that UP will want to get rid of this bridge as they are in fact the minority user. Certainly, negotiations to restore the Pioneer could quite well involve a public purchase of the Steel Bridge which will not be cheap.

Presumably the return of this train will only result with state funding, and I just don't see Oregon spending money on a train to a sparsely populated area that truly goes to "the middle of nowhere" especially given the debate over Amtrak funding for just one train between Portland and Eugene (and even that train, as "popular" as it is yet achieves fairly low ridership in comparison to its real potential). When we (Oregon) can't even make rail work between Portland and Salem where there is truly strong, bi-directional demand for high capacity transit between Oregon's largest and third largest (and only under Eugene by 100 residents) cities within 50 miles of each other...I can't fathom how to make rail work to a region in which PSU's latest Population Report shows that four of the five counties which lost population from 2000 to 2008 (Baker, Wallowa, Sherman and Gilliam counties). (Source: http://www.pdx.edu/sites/www.pdx.edu.pr ... pRpt08.pdf)

TBlack wrote:GBN, Gilbert,

I don't disagree with any of your points vis a vis the economics of the LD system. Logic is on your side. But I'm one of those guys who likes to ride the train simply to ride the train. So any encouragement from Congress that says they aren't bound by the 5 year rule that you cite is euphoria for me!

Mr. Black, I respect your candor that your position on a "need" for LD trains is largely driven by self-interest; you evidently are far more mature about such than one certain "train crazy" member of another forum at which we both participate:

• This idea of going where the people are and blahblahblah--I can't help but think it is part of the ideas of IMO shortsighted people who care only about short-term money matters and cannot see the forest for the trees. In fact, in the same way that many people on this board rightly complain of far too much attention among some pols to the NEC at the expense of the rest of the country's trains, it's the same attitude you are arguing for--only care about trains where the very most people are. Trains are simply all commuter trains to you

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Transitrider, while not for one moment am I suggesting that you broke any Forum rules or for that matter any appertaining Fair Use by linking to the Associated Press material, let us be mindful that AP could well "get tough" and the availability of their material at the web curtailed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/busin ... paper.html

Finally, I believe your material should be cited as "Associated Press courtesy of Forbes.Com"

Mr. Transitrider did fail to provide a short quote or summary of the article, as outlined here:

http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=59891

-otto-

I would agree with wigwag fan , the traffic potential for this route seems low in comparison with others .
i took this train in the late 80's , stopping at a place starting with P to visit yellowstone park , it involved getting off the train in the middle of the nite . i dont think there is a way of providing decent times on this route without scarificing the connection at salt lake city .

Pocatello, Idaho Mr Benton

thats the place , Mr Norman . That was actually quite a slice of americana for me , those 2 days arriving / waiting for the train . the huge old car i rented ( the first one the steering column started smoking , i took it back and he cheerfully gave me another one ) , the lady in the supermarket asking me if i was a health freak ( to me i was just getting ordinary food ) , picking up a hitchhiking female teacher from Boulder , the cops visiting the bar across the street from the station ( wow just like the movies , no doughnuts in evidence unfortunately ) , the young (17-18 yo ) girls hassling me while i was trying to sleep waiting for the train ( trying to expound the vitrues of american free love , i was trying to impress on her the rest of the world is actually allowed to make love too ) . those huge old bench seats are great to sleep on , providing there are no young ladies to keep you up !

Otto,

Can we be clear about the rules? Mr. Transitrider did 2 things: he provided a link, and he cut and pasted from that link. The former is allowed. The latter, by itself, would not be allowed, but in the context of his message, because credit was given via the link, perhaps it is allowed?

GBN,

I'm reading your linked source to say that if I am an owner of a for-profit site I must follow certain rules. If I'm just a contributor to a site, and not out for profit, the situation is more ambiguous.

TB

What the Pioneer study shows us, as Mr Norman aptly points out, is that Amtrak's budget is still tied to Congress. Keeping the Congresscritters happy, even if it's paying a consultant to study a route, is a high priority for the folks at 60 Mass.

Mr Boardman, when its due, will have the study delivered to Congress in general and the right Congresscritters in particular. After that will come a FY appropriation cycle. If the right Congresscritters appropriate Feddybux for a train, it'll happen. If they mandate usage of PRIA (?) 08 or stimulus $$$ for a train, it'll happen. Otherwise, I'll bet a dinner at the Golden Ox that once delivered, the study will gather electronc dust in an archive on some staffers hard drive.

I was told by an Amtrak employee who I trust that Amtrak was considering reinstating the Pioneer. I heard this a while ago and have heard nothing more about it. Can anyone either confirm this or tell to dream on?

I'm based in Salt Lake City and have heard nothing more than you have. No hiring is going on that would enable the carrier to commence operation anytime soon.

Rail Boy wrote:I was told by an Amtrak employee who I trust that Amtrak was considering reinstating the Pioneer. I heard this a while ago and have heard nothing more about it. Can anyone either confirm this or tell to dream on?

Until you hear the announcement from Amtrak or your local DOT or other partnering organization, it's just wishful thinking.

There has been some "talk" of "support" but I dont know what the next steps are to reality. Besides showing up with gobs of cash and some available equipment.

http://crapo.senate.gov/media/newsrelea ... ?id=302941

“The number of people riding Amtrak increased 13.9% in July and 10.5% in August from a year earlier, as high gas prices caused more commuters to rely on intercity rail,” wrote the group. “We believe that there is a substantial interest in reinstating Amtrak’s Pioneer Route in our states and we are asking that you support this study as a first step.”

-otto-

Didn't we beat this issue to death on another thread?

Could we look at locking or combining this thread into the last thread where the Pioneer was discussed - at length if I recall.