• Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Noel Weaver
 
Matt Johnson wrote:
Noel Weaver wrote: Amtrak's standard of service in Florida will be much higher when the trains are operating on the Florida East Coast as I
believe they will be sooner or later and the sooner the better.
Noel Weaver
Sure sounds that way! I hope it happens this time!
We are working for it, I have attended a couple of meetings and expect to attend a few more. The ride was splendid, far
better and smoother than the present CSX route through Central Florida. The FEC is much shorter too, 65 miles shorter
between Jacksonville and Miami.
Noel Weaver
  by Noel Weaver
 
KV1guy wrote:
Noel Weaver wrote:
Matt Johnson wrote:What was the top speed of the inspection train on the FEC? 79 mph?
Matt and others, the top speed we traveled at was 79 MPH but the railroad could easily do much higher. The track is
probably the very best of any freight railroad anywhere and rivals the NEC. Problem was that Amtrak locomotives presently
do no have cab signals that will work on the FEC. It is probably a situation where the computer on the Amtrak locomotive
would have to be modified but I am sure that it can be done.
I can tell you this, the train rode so smooth that you had no conception of the speeds. There were no rough spots anywhere
and this means not even on the drawbridges. You notice the difference immediately at Jacksonville after entering FEC
trackage. I rode trains 98 and 97 up to JAX and back and what a difference, we got thrown all over the place especially on
the former Seaboard trackage between Auburndale and the state owned trackage just north of West Palm Beach. The former
ACL trackage was not quite as bad but it did not come close to the standard of the Florida East Coast.
Amtrak's standard of service in Florida will be much higher when the trains are operating on the Florida East Coast as I
believe they will be sooner or later and the sooner the better.
Noel Weaver
I am glad to hear that you are going. I went to the meeting in Fort Pierce (the Public Workshop) last Thursday evening and I
made it plain on two Amtrak issues: the Liability issue with the state and the 80/20 provision of a potential stimulus that
should come in the fall. I told them that 20 per cent of the required funds would be a state or local situation and that they
need to consider local options, maybe involve the private sector as well. All in all the Fort Pierce was a good meeting and I
think Fort Pierce and Stuart are farther along on this than maybe some of the other localities are.
If it wasn't for the distance from Fort Lauderdale, I would go to more of them. I am planning on the one in Stuart later this
month as well. I think we have a decent chance this time.
Noel Weaver


Someone correct me if Im wrong. FEC uses the old GE Harris cab signals that run on 60hz. Amtrak locos I think use 100hz. It will be more than just messing with the computer. Currently we plan on retrofitting 20 locos to be FEC compliant.

Also, Im going to try to attend the St Aug public workshop this coming Wed. PM if you want to talk about that or have any issues you'd like me to raise there.
  by Jeff Smith
 
Meetings Scheduled: http://www.news-journalonline.com/news/ ... ytona.html
Anyone interested in that rail line proposal is invited to a public meeting at 6 p.m. tonight in City Hall in conference room #149B.


Another public meeting on the Amtrak proposal is slated for 11 a.m. Thursday in the same room at City Hall.

Earlier this month, Amtrak put a special train on the Florida East Coast Railway railroad tracks to test the feasibility of the idea to run from Jacksonville to Miami. For more than 40 years, those tracks have been used chiefly for freight trains.

The FEC traces its history to railroad and hotel pioneer Henry Flagler. There was passenger service on FEC lines from the late 1800s until 1968, when a labor dispute ended service.
I also note that the article mentions no stops in Flagler County. If I remember, Palm Coast is in Flagler, isn't it? That's been developed quite a bit in the last twenty years. I realize that the idea is to run an LD train, though, and adding stops makes it a milk run commuter train.
  by Noel Weaver
 
Sarge wrote:Meetings Scheduled: http://www.news-journalonline.com/news/ ... ytona.html
Anyone interested in that rail line proposal is invited to a public meeting at 6 p.m. tonight in City Hall in conference room #149B.


Another public meeting on the Amtrak proposal is slated for 11 a.m. Thursday in the same room at City Hall.

Earlier this month, Amtrak put a special train on the Florida East Coast Railway railroad tracks to test the feasibility of the idea to run from Jacksonville to Miami. For more than 40 years, those tracks have been used chiefly for freight trains.

The FEC traces its history to railroad and hotel pioneer Henry Flagler. There was passenger service on FEC lines from the late 1800s until 1968, when a labor dispute ended service.
I also note that the article mentions no stops in Flagler County. If I remember, Palm Coast is in Flagler, isn't it? That's been developed quite a bit in the last twenty years. I realize that the idea is to run an LD train, though, and adding stops makes it a milk run commuter train.
There is a lot of interest in Bunnel which is not far from Palm Coast and in Flagler County. They had a large group of folks
out to watch us pass by there at a slow rate of speed with all sorts of signs, flags, fire trucks and even a crane. There may
be a way to put a stop in this area, I hope they find one.
The strike began in January, 1963 and at that time all of the passenger service stopped operation. A court order in 1965
caused the return of one local passenger train between Jacksonville and North Miami. It did not operate into Downtown
Miami because there were no longer any facilities to handle it, the station having been torn down previously. The court
ordered train lasted just short of three years when the railroad citing very little patronage got an OK to finally drop it.
Noel Weaver
  by CentralValleyRail
 
I know this has probaly been said but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

What is the projected start up date?

Also is there a website I can go to with the proposal?

Thanks
  by Ocklawaha
 
Yes the old hippie/railroad planner has a unique posting style... but 1/2 blind, it's the content that counts, besides I dig the colors! Gee if I could just wrap that PURPLE SIGNATURE with Silver and Gold Trim.

Image
That sad day in 1968, when Conductor Fields and I were the last people to ever step off an FEC passenger train.

Image
Oh happy day!

We scooped some major news and more details at the St. Augustine station workshop, Wednesday, a full report is available at, start up about 2012:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/articl ... ak-station

Also on MJ, check out the Blueprint for Jacksonville, Mobility Plan, and Commuter Rail Plan articles in the Transit Section.

Blueprint for Jacksonville, involves possible FEC access to JAXPORT, City ownership of JAXPORT access with a neutral terminal company or reciprocal switching. A complete rethinking of the JAX rail map and a move into a bigger league of rail cities. This report a couple of years old, has found it's way into the new mobility plan and construction on the rebuilding of the old Seaboard "S" line in downtown may be complete by the time the first FEC / Amtrak train runs. http://www.metrojacksonville.com/articl ... cksonville

Mobility Plan, is a series of articles that follow on dozens of rail, streetcar, LRT, BRT and even monorail story's (Jacksonville has a working monorail system). It's interesting to see the inclusion of the earlier stories in this official document. PROOF POSITIVE, a handful of Urbanist's, Planners, Railroaders, and activists CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE! Just wait until we start our parade to reinstate the ROYAL PALM between MIA/TPA-JAX-ATL-CIN (Split) Sections to: COL - CLE - BUF; DAY - TOL - DET; IND - CHI. In fact we have already started some pretty high level talks, stay tuned.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/articl ... ility-plan

Commuter Rail anyone? Dozens of story's on how to and why a city of Jacksonville's population and giant size needs rail and needs it NOW!
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/articl ... muter-rail
FEC CR TOUR
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/articl ... photo-tour

In case you think BUS RAPID TRANSIT is an answer or in case you need ammunition to take out a BRT argument, see our RAIL -v- BRT articles.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/articl ... muter-rail
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/articl ... al-chapter

Enjoy... Yeah, I'm a newbie here but an old hat to you NE FL boys and girls. If you register at MJ and want to contact me send me a PM to "Ocklawaha".


OCKLAWAHA
For an environmentalist fight to save a river, and from the Ocklawaha Valley Railroad
http://ocklawahavalley.ning.com/
  by miamicanes
 
Rental cars and immediate proximity to the new airport Metrorail station aside, there's a big, *huge* reason for Amtrak to make MIC their Miami station -- Miami residents can safely leave their cars parked there overnight. You'd have to be *insane* to leave your car parked at the Hialeah station. I've met at least a dozen people over the past 3 years who live in Miami south of 836 and literally drive 20+ miles north to Hollywood Station when they ride Amtrak... precisely because it's the nearest station to Miami where you can safely leave your car parked without spending the entire trip worrying you're going to return a few days later to a car with smashed windows, missing contents, and probably a lot of water damage from rain... assuming Amtrak didn't have your car towed, piling a $200+ towing bill plus daily storage charges AND a taxi ride home (since your car will be miles away, and the towing company won't release it without a copy of your title AND cash to pay the towing/storage charges).

Yeah, it would be more work for Amtrak to run the trains ~5 miles to and from Hialeah at the start and finish of each trip... but for God's sake, we're talking about 5 miles, not 50. Planes landing at DFW taxi farther than that between the terminal and main runways. If you're on eastbound I-595 at US-441, you'll almost drive farther than that before your car makes contact with the nearest surface road. MIC is such an ungodly huge improvement over the Hialeah Amshack, it would almost be *criminal* for Amtrak to not make it their official Miami station.

The current Hialeah Amtrak station is horrible for actual passengers. You can't safely park there, rental cars are nowhere nearby, the nearest freeways are several miles away through (take your pick) hellish perpetual gridlock or a dangerous ghetto that would scare Hannibal Lecter. The nearest Metrorail station is more than a mile away, the nearest Dade County Bus stop is at least a half mile away, and shared van taxis (SuperShuttle) don't service it.

That said, I really hope Amtrak doesn't do something suicidally stupid, like eliminate one of the two trains between Miami and Orlando to add the MIA-JAX route as some have suggested. If the only way to get to Orlando from Miami (and vice-versa) is a 7 hour trip via Tampa (the likely scenario, since I can't see them eliminating Tampa instead), their (currently substantial) Miami-Orlando intrastate travel market will be killed dead. Nobody, not even the most diehard railfan, is masochistic enough to spend 7 hours riding between Miami and Orlando more than once.
  by Noel Weaver
 
miamicanes wrote:Rental cars and immediate proximity to the new airport Metrorail station aside, there's a big, *huge* reason for Amtrak to make MIC their Miami station -- Miami residents can safely leave their cars parked there overnight. You'd have to be *insane* to leave your car parked at the Hialeah station. I've met at least a dozen people over the past 3 years who live in Miami south of 836 and literally drive 20+ miles north to Hollywood Station when they ride Amtrak... precisely because it's the nearest station to Miami where you can safely leave your car parked without spending the entire trip worrying you're going to return a few days later to a car with smashed windows, missing contents, and probably a lot of water damage from rain... assuming Amtrak didn't have your car towed, piling a $200+ towing bill plus daily storage charges AND a taxi ride home (since your car will be miles away, and the towing company won't release it without a copy of your title AND cash to pay the towing/storage charges).

Yeah, it would be more work for Amtrak to run the trains ~5 miles to and from Hialeah at the start and finish of each trip... but for God's sake, we're talking about 5 miles, not 50. Planes landing at DFW taxi farther than that between the terminal and main runways. If you're on eastbound I-595 at US-441, you'll almost drive farther than that before your car makes contact with the nearest surface road. MIC is such an ungodly huge improvement over the Hialeah Amshack, it would almost be *criminal* for Amtrak to not make it their official Miami station.

The current Hialeah Amtrak station is horrible for actual passengers. You can't safely park there, rental cars are nowhere nearby, the nearest freeways are several miles away through (take your pick) hellish perpetual gridlock or a dangerous ghetto that would scare Hannibal Lecter. The nearest Metrorail station is more than a mile away, the nearest Dade County Bus stop is at least a half mile away, and shared van taxis (SuperShuttle) don't service it.

That said, I really hope Amtrak doesn't do something suicidally stupid, like eliminate one of the two trains between Miami and Orlando to add the MIA-JAX route as some have suggested. If the only way to get to Orlando from Miami (and vice-versa) is a 7 hour trip via Tampa (the likely scenario, since I can't see them eliminating Tampa instead), their (currently substantial) Miami-Orlando intrastate travel market will be killed dead. Nobody, not even the most diehard railfan, is masochistic enough to spend 7 hours riding between Miami and Orlando more than once.
I agree that there is no rental car counter in the station at Miami (Hialeah) but many rental companies will deliver a car by
appointment so a car can be had there. Local bus lines stop at the station including a direct bus to Miami Beach. The
nearest Metro-Rail Station is much less than a mile but it is not a good idea to walk there. If a southbound passenger is
headed for Metro-Rail, it is not difficult to transfer at either Fort Lauderdale or Hollywood to Tri-Rail for a direct connection
to Metro-Rail. Unless Amtrak decides to run on the Florida East Coast all the way to Downtown Miami and build a station
there, I suspect they will remain exactly where they are in Hialeah and utilize a new connection between the Florida East
Coast and Tri-Rail trackage at West Palm Beach. Of course there will not be a decision on this for some time, we have to
get the basic service on the FEC first or at least get the decision made to run there first before anything more happens.
In addition a new station at the Miami Airport would not be owned nor operated by Amtrak and the owners of this facility
will expect Amtrak to pay rent to use it, this would make absolutely no sense for Amtrak as they would gain little or
nothing. They already own their station in Hialeah.
Orlando and Tampa will continue to have service. I don't know whether Miami - Tampa or Miami Orlando service will continue after they move to the FEC or not. It is far more important to improve revenues for these trains and splitting the
train at Jacksonville and covering both the east and west as well as Orlando is the sensible thing to do.
You are also incorrect concerning the present service between Miami and both Tampa and Orlando. As of now there is a
direct train to both Orlando (98 and 97) and Tampa (92 and 91). The East Coast of Florida offers Amtrak a huge
opportunity to expand their passenger operations in Florida without adding a huge number of trains and the sooner this
happens, the better off everybody will be.
As far as parking there is concerned, I parked my car there twice in connection with the Amtrak Inspection Train and I had
absolutely no problems of any kind and there were other cars there as well. There is a police patrol (Amtrak that is) in the
area and people are working there at night as well. I would have no hesistation to leave my car again there if there was
need to and the parking is free and plentiful too.
Noel Weaver
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Hurricane, for the reasons Mr. Weaver notes, Amtrak simply should stay right where they are in Hialeah; no need to incur additional costs to operate trains to the Intermodal Center then handle reverse equipment moves to the HIA maintenance facility. The existing "two a day' - the only Amtrak LD route to have that frequency - simply renders Amtrak as a bit player in the market. Indicative of such is that no auto rental concern is willing to set up shop at any Amtrak station in Florida other than Orlando. Like it or not, Florida is "auto-centric" (I'm at a loss to think of anyone going down there without an auto - whoops, one family that has relatives - only time that particular auto sees anywhere other than the grocery store, the doctor, or church) and a rental auto, if one uses commercial transportation, seems to be as part and parcel as a hotel room.

I would of course hold differently about use of the Intermodal Center if somehow the political winds were to blow differently and a State wide initiative were to move forth with a "four a day" Corridor over existing ROW's (including FEC, if their management has actually had some kind of passenger train "epiphany"). Part of any such initiative I believe would be to entice (coerce?) auto rental concerns to have staffed facilities and ready to go autos at each major station. It is simply what anyone who customarily uses air travel expects and to be in the game so must any Corridor initiative.
  by shadyjay
 
I've been going over various routing options in Florida for the trains presently serving and here's what I come up with:

* South of Savannah, there are presently two daily Amtrak trains, 91/92 and 97/98
* All trains use the route via Orlando to reach southern points, 91/92 going to Tampa first, then Miami and 97/98 going directly to Miami
* There is presently no service on the route which passes to the west of Orlando, via Ocala and Wildwood. This was last used by the Silver Palm, which ran to Tampa then Miami


There are many options as it is, adding the FEC routing throws in more options, but this is what I've come up with:
ref. this page from the Amtrak National timetable 10/29/2000... courtesy the Museum of Railway Timetables: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0032

* Maintain 97/98 service as is, from Jacksonville to Orlando, then Miami
* Split the Silver Star at Jacksonville - 91/92 operates to Miami via Ocala and Wildwood. 81/82 operates to Orlando, then Tampa, and terminates there.
* With this you maintain two daily roundtrips in each direction serving Orlando.
* Extend the Silver Palm, 89/90, to Miami via the FEC.
* Throw in a possible/future/years-down-the-road City of New Orleans and you've got another Jacksonville-Orlando-(Miami?) route as well.

Of the many questions: is there enough business/potential business for these routes to all be viable? Does Amtrak want to deal with splitting trains at Jacksonville? Is the Ocala route worthy of passenger restoration? Does Orlando need two daily trains? Should Tampa have more service?

Through the early 2000s, Amtrak did run 3 daily trains from the Northeast to Florida, so I believe the market IS there, but the question is how best to utilize it and get the most "bang for the buck". Of course Amtrak would also need additional sleepers and diners to make the trains really attractive to overnight passengers - a pillow in business class and meals from the cafe isn't going to cut it this time.

Thoughts?
  by Ocala Mike
 
shadyjay, as I have stated previously on this forum, passenger service on the "S" line through Ocala and Wildwood is history. As part of the deal with CSX involving the purchase of some 61 miles of the "A" line from Deland to Poinciana for commuter rail, the "S" line will now be getting much more freight traffic that formerly went over the "A" line, and is pretty much to be earmarked "freight only." As if to put a punctuation mark on what I'm saying, a few months ago the Amtrak station sign for Ocala was unceremoniously removed, followed a few days later by the systematic dismantling of the track canopy. All we're left with now is a building that looks like a railroad station serving as a Greyhound and MCO airport limo station. Sad but true! Maybe I'll try and get some photos to post on here for you.
  by Noel Weaver
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Hurricane, for the reasons Mr. Weaver notes, Amtrak simply should stay right where they are in Hialeah; no need to incur additional costs to operate trains to the Intermodal Center then handle reverse equipment moves to the HIA maintenance facility. The existing "two a day' - the only Amtrak LD route to have that frequency - simply renders Amtrak as a bit player in the market. Indicative of such is that no auto rental concern is willing to set up shop at any Amtrak station in Florida other than Orlando. Like it or not, Florida is "auto-centric" (I'm at a loss to think of anyone going down there without an auto - whoops, one family that has relatives - only time that particular auto sees anywhere other than the grocery store, the doctor, or church) and a rental auto, if one uses commercial transportation, seems to be as part and parcel as a hotel room.

I would of course hold differently about use of the Intermodal Center if somehow the political winds were to blow differently and a State wide initiative were to move forth with a "four a day" Corridor over existing ROW's (including FEC, if their management has actually had some kind of passenger train "epiphany"). Part of any such initiative I believe would be to entice (coerce?) auto rental concerns to have staffed facilities and ready to go autos at each major station. It is simply what anyone who customarily uses air travel expects and to be in the game so must any Corridor initiative.
Even if a state supported corridor type operation were to emerge in Florida, I still think it would be a huge advantage for
Amtrak to build a facility in downtown Miami rather than use one at the airport. Over a long period one big advantage of
rail passenger service has been the location of a station in a decent and accessible area of town. Downtown Miami would
mean easier access to Miami Beach and the other resorts, easier access to the Port of Miami for cruise ship passengers
and generally better access to public transit as well. While the line downtown would need much work in order for regular
use by passenger trains to be possible, it is in place and fully intact to within a half mile of the original Florida East Coast
passenger station and it is only 5 miles from there up to Little River where it joins the present freight line. The railroad
has maintained this line in condition for a train movement even if it was limited to 10 MPH, has maintained very fancy
crossing protection at all of the grade crossings and they all work, believe me and they have paid taxes on this property
for a long time. There are only two reasons for this, one the possibility of passenger train use in the future and two the
possibility of business developing directly in and out of the Port of Miami although in this case the drawbridge needs repairs
in order to be able to reach the port. The train that I rode out of downtown just over two weeks ago was the first
passenger train out of downtown Miami in 47 years, simply amazing that it happened in the first place. There is still hope
that regular operation of passenger trains could again be a part of downtown Miami.
Noel Weaver
  by shadyjay
 
Ocala Mike wrote:shadyjay, as I have stated previously on this forum, passenger service on the "S" line through Ocala and Wildwood is history.
My apologies... I must've missed that. So I guess that eliminates a line from the equation, then.
  by Ocala Mike
 
Well, no need to apologize, shadyjay. I'm not the last word on this, but it sure looks grim when they remove the word "AMTRAK" from the brickface sign in front of the "Ocala Union Station" setup, and they take down the sign pictured below (picture taken last November; sign removed a few months ago):


http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/dcb38 ... 4398253a83

Not sure it shows up in the photo, but note that the overhang is gone, and all that's left are the support stanchions. The overhang on the old ACL side of the station (not pictured) is still there.
  • 1
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11
  • 12
  • 13
  • 27