Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

What was the top speed of the inspection train on the FEC? 79 mph?

Noel, Im talking about the new "Miami Central Station" which is due to open in 2012, specifically, 13-Nov-12 (probably will be delayed until 2013) and is intended for Amtrak, trirail and metrorail.

I can't see why Amtrak would not want to stop there in favor of their existing shack.

http://micdot.com/mic_program/projects/ ... ings/2.jpg
http://micdot.com/mic_program/projects/ ... ings/1.jpg

From:
http://micdot.com/mcs_renderings.html

One out of the square option : Extend the Palmetto to Miami via the FEC .
such a train would arrive Jacksonville around 11pm , leave 11.30 pm , arrive Miami 7 am . Leave Miami around 10 pm , arrive Jacksonville about 5 am , leave 6 am .
the advantage would be non stop running between jacksonville and Miami , therefore requiring no new stations , and a fast transit time . passengers from Miami could leave that nite and be anywhere up the atlantic coast the next day .
Such a service would require one extra set of palmetto coaches , plus 3 sets of viewliner sleepers .
Presuming these are avaliable , the only major drawback is that no new towns would be served on the FEC , therefore presumably having little local support . it would make a good Miami -atlantic coast -New York option though .

David Benton wrote:One out of the square option : Extend the Palmetto to Miami via the FEC .
such a train would arrive Jacksonville around 11pm , leave 11.30 pm , arrive Miami 7 am . Leave Miami around 10 pm , arrive Jacksonville about 5 am , leave 6 am .
the advantage would be non stop running between jacksonville and Miami , therefore requiring no new stations , and a fast transit time . passengers from Miami could leave that nite and be anywhere up the atlantic coast the next day .
Such a service would require one extra set of palmetto coaches , plus 3 sets of viewliner sleepers .
Presuming these are avaliable , the only major drawback is that no new towns would be served on the FEC , therefore presumably having little local support . it would make a good Miami -atlantic coast -New York option though .

In my experience there is a need for local trains in Florida, so a local day train would be necessary, stopping at intermediate stations.

Matt Johnson wrote:What was the top speed of the inspection train on the FEC? 79 mph?

Matt and others, the top speed we traveled at was 79 MPH but the railroad could easily do much higher. The track is
probably the very best of any freight railroad anywhere and rivals the NEC. Problem was that Amtrak locomotives presently
do no have cab signals that will work on the FEC. It is probably a situation where the computer on the Amtrak locomotive
would have to be modified but I am sure that it can be done.
I can tell you this, the train rode so smooth that you had no conception of the speeds. There were no rough spots anywhere
and this means not even on the drawbridges. You notice the difference immediately at Jacksonville after entering FEC
trackage. I rode trains 98 and 97 up to JAX and back and what a difference, we got thrown all over the place especially on
the former Seaboard trackage between Auburndale and the state owned trackage just north of West Palm Beach. The former
ACL trackage was not quite as bad but it did not come close to the standard of the Florida East Coast.
Amtrak's standard of service in Florida will be much higher when the trains are operating on the Florida East Coast as I
believe they will be sooner or later and the sooner the better.
Noel Weaver

jamesinclair wrote:Noel, Im talking about the new "Miami Central Station" which is due to open in 2012, specifically, 13-Nov-12 (probably will be delayed until 2013) and is intended for Amtrak, trirail and metrorail.

I can't see why Amtrak would not want to stop there in favor of their existing shack.

http://micdot.com/mic_program/projects/ ... ings/2.jpg
http://micdot.com/mic_program/projects/ ... ings/1.jpg

From:
http://micdot.com/mcs_renderings.html

What's the advantage of Miami's massively expensive, $1.7 billion Miami Intermodal Center? If anything, this project looks like a pointless prestige project in the mold of Transbay Terminal, badly planned, badly conceived, funded with no real object in mind other than to spend a lot of money.

Of course, just to prove that Miami is in contention with Jacksonville to become the Detroit-of-Florida, they're building a so-called "People Mover!" Well, at least it goes to the airport?

The real advantage of the current Hialeah station is its proximity to servicing facilities, as a well as a track to turn the trains. It no doubt would cost more to move unoccupied consists back to Hialeah from this new station, and there also isn't much point in connecting to the airport, since who in their right mind want to a take a flight after they've spent more than a day on a train? Metrorail doesn't really go much of anywhere and there isn't much point in backtracking on Tri-Rail after you've taken a Silver Service train south?

goodnightjohnwayne wrote: What's the advantage of Miami's massively expensive, $1.7 billion Miami Intermodal Center? If anything, this project looks like a pointless prestige project in the mold of Transbay Terminal, badly planned, badly conceived, funded with no real object in mind other than to spend a lot of money.

Of course, just to prove that Miami is in contention with Jacksonville to become the Detroit-of-Florida, they're building a so-called "People Mover!" Well, at least it goes to the airport?

The real advantage of the current Hialeah station is its proximity to servicing facilities, as a well as a track to turn the trains. It no doubt would cost more to move unoccupied consists back to Hialeah from this new station, and there also isn't much point in connecting to the airport, since who in their right mind want to a take a flight after they've spent more than a day on a train? Metrorail doesn't really go much of anywhere and there isn't much point in backtracking on Tri-Rail after you've taken a Silver Service train south?

Well, the point of the facility is as follows:

Phase 1 is a consolidated rental car center. The primary purpose is eliminating independent fleets of shuttle bsues around the airport, which add pollution and traffic. I've used the one in Las Vegas, and it really is great. I know Pheonix has one as well. The bonus is that many large plots of land, which were sued to store rental cars open up for new development.

Trirail has always terminated by the airport, and trirail provides service to ft lauderdale airport as well, allowing for airport transfers. MIA is the nations biggest hub for flights from south america, ft lauderdale meanwhile is the hub for the low cost domestic airlines.

Theyre tying in metrorail because metrorail is indeed somewhat useless. Taking it to the airport makes it very useful, especially if you can take metrorail from the airport to downtown.

So whats the benefit to amtrak passengers?

-Access to rental car center
-Access to metrorail
-Access to downtown metromover via metrorail.
-Access to multiple bus lines
-Access to the airport via free people mover train
-Much closer to downtown.
-Highway access (dolphin expressway)

How many amtrak passengers WANT to be in Hialeah? I assume most are heading downtown or to miami beach. Miami central station puts them MUCH closer to that. And like I said, MIA is THE hub for flights going to south america. It might make sense to take amtrak from northern florida to the airport, especially if there is a codeshare agreement, like with continental around NYC.

Hialeah might make sense for the crew, but it does not make sense for the passenger.

There one extra benefit: People like "fancy" places, especially when there are food places and shops. Nobody likes waiting in an amshack. A real station can make the entire trip better.

Strange as it sounds, Miami is the third biggest station Amtrak has within Florida handling 80348 passengers during 2008, it is surpasses by both Orlando @ 147491 and Tampa @ 100119.

Respectfully disagreeing with Mr. Sinclair (who I do respect as a man for apparently being willing to register using his given name), the only group of passengers that would likely benefit from Amtrak service to the Intermodal Center (it could over existing Tri Rail trackage) would be those passengers desiring to rent an auto. Beyond better serving that segment, which is hardly that drawn from a like universe of airline passengers, what is in it for Amtrak to commit additional funds to move away from their existing 1980 vintage station in close proximity to their maintenance facility?.

Now if Florida were to have a meaningful intercity HSR system, that would make for a "whole new ball game', but I simply do not foresee that. The voters said no way once, and as fiscal responsibility sets in as we pull out of the recession (I was watching CNBC today 'when it happened' and thought "here we go again' but I think, and The Market will concur, it was one of those technical problems that prompted the sell-off today), the chances of Florida HSR developing become less a probability.

Finally, I am not optimistic that the McCoy to Tampa HSR line will ever be completed - Florida is a rather "auto centric' place.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: Now if Florida were to have a meaningful intercity HSR system, that would make for a "whole new ball game', but I simply do not foresee that. The voters said no way once,

I dont mean to hijack this....but I believe the voters said YES and then Governor Jeb Bush said NO.

Noel Weaver wrote:As I have stated before, nobody knows yet whether the trains would run the FEC all the way to Miami and use a terminal
downtown or whether they would switch to the state owned trackage at WPB and ride on the Tri-Rail trackage between WPB
and Miami using the present Amtrak Station in Hialeah.

The proposal is, as per the Public Meeting Notice: "Eight new stations are proposed, including St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, Titusville, Cocoa, Melbourne, Vero Beach, Fort Pierce, and Stuart, as well as an FEC/CSX rail interconnection in West Palm Beach." To find the schedule of District 5 meetings click here: http://www2.dot.state.fl.us/publicsyndi ... _district5 otherwise select your district at the top of the page.

jamesinclair wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote: Now if Florida were to have a meaningful intercity HSR system, that would make for a "whole new ball game', but I simply do not foresee that. The voters said no way once,

I dont mean to hijack this....but I believe the voters said YES and then Governor Jeb Bush said NO.

Yes. Sigh. Apparently this point has to be made almost constantly. Florida voters have shown themselves to be of many minds on this question. Describing them as saying "no way" just isn't accurate. They've said yes, no, maybe.

Anyway, I tend to agree with GBN that other than rental cars, the benefits of sending LD trains to the airport are not great. Few of the pax would be looking to transfer to a plane there. Given timekeeping issues, I just don't see an LD train EVER appealing to large numbers of in-state travelers looking for a convenient ride to their flight. If one day there is good corridor service on the FEC, that might be different. And I agree with GBN that the odds of a real HSR network in Fla aren't great, at least not in the next 6 to 8 years, even though public opinion is actually pretty ambivalent. I mean, even the funded experimental line may or may not get built, won't be complete for several years, and doesn't go to Miami.

If anything, at this point I'm actually more swayed by the excitement of Mr. Weaver into thinking that there might one day be a reasonably fast, frequent corridor service on the FEC. This seems to have more going for it than the Tampa HSR demonstrator effort.

As an aside, I want to say that it's great to see someone consolidate airport rental car operations. Albuquerque does this. Few things make me more disgusted than the fleets of empty rental car buses smogging their way through airports. If I ran airport, I wouldn't allow independent buses, even if they DID have to serve separate locations. Let the buses drop pax sequentially at different car companies. But I'm way off topic here.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

jamesinclair wrote:Noel, Im talking about the new "Miami Central Station" which is due to open in 2012, specifically, 13-Nov-12 (probably will be delayed until 2013) and is intended for Amtrak, trirail and metrorail.

I can't see why Amtrak would not want to stop there in favor of their existing shack.

http://micdot.com/mic_program/projects/ ... ings/2.jpg
http://micdot.com/mic_program/projects/ ... ings/1.jpg

From:
http://micdot.com/mcs_renderings.html

What's the advantage of Miami's massively expensive, $1.7 billion Miami Intermodal Center? If anything, this project looks like a pointless prestige project in the mold of Transbay Terminal, badly planned, badly conceived, funded with no real object in mind other than to spend a lot of money.

Of course, just to prove that Miami is in contention with Jacksonville to become the Detroit-of-Florida, they're building a so-called "People Mover!" Well, at least it goes to the airport?

The real advantage of the current Hialeah station is its proximity to servicing facilities, as a well as a track to turn the trains. It no doubt would cost more to move unoccupied consists back to Hialeah from this new station, and there also isn't much point in connecting to the airport, since who in their right mind want to a take a flight after they've spent more than a day on a train? Metrorail doesn't really go much of anywhere and there isn't much point in backtracking on Tri-Rail after you've taken a Silver Service train south?

I tend to agree with this one. There were be a number of problems in Amtrak running down to the Miami Airport. One is
that it is a busy commuter line and presently there is no way to easily turn a long passenger train there. The line has a
single track bridge over the Miami Canal, the only single track section of Tri-Rail, and it would be a long back up move to
Hialeah where the trains would still have to be serviced. Amtrak has invested a lot of money in improvements to their
Hialeah facilities and they will continue to be the service center for these trains no matter where they terminate.
The present passenger station at Hialeah is not in a good location and not in a good part of town either. For an easy
transfer to Metro-Rail a passenger needs to get off Amtrak at one of the jointly served stations and change to a commuter
train for the Metro-Rail transfer station which is really within walking distance of the Miami Amtrak Station but again not a
safe or good walk especially with luggage. Maybe the new terminal would be a desirable place to terminate Amtrak but the
problems in doing so might well cause Amtrak to just say "no thanks" to this plan and I don't see any way that the state can
require Amtrak to use a station that they do not want to use. In any event there would be increased costs for Amtrak to
use a station that they do not own (user fees or rent in this case) plus increased crew and operating costs in getting the
trains back to Hialeah or from Hialeah down to the airport station.
It would make much more sense for Amtrak to run all the way on the Florida East Coast to Downtown Miami and build a
station there. It would still require a move out to Hialeah for servicing the equipment but at least the station could be in a
desirable location convenient to Cruise Ships at the Port of Miami, Miami Beach and public transportation as well.
I think the Metro-Rail extension to the airport is a good move but I do not see any advantage to Amtrak to serve the
airport, I don't think Amtrak passengers will be flying out of Miami to anyplace and if by chance they did, they could always
connect at any jointly served station between West Palm Beach and Hollywood. There are four staffed stations that have
service by both Amtrak and Tri-Rail and Tri-Rail has hourly or better service on weekdays and two hour service on Saturday
and Sunday.
Public transportation is a royal mess in Florida and part of this is because our leadership either has little knowledge or more
likely little interest in just how effective public transportation works.
We will need to stay tuned for further developments.
Noel Weaver

David Benton wrote:One out of the square option : Extend the Palmetto to Miami via the FEC .
such a train would arrive Jacksonville around 11pm , leave 11.30 pm , arrive Miami 7 am . Leave Miami around 10 pm , arrive Jacksonville about 5 am , leave 6 am .
the advantage would be non stop running between jacksonville and Miami , therefore requiring no new stations , and a fast transit time . passengers from Miami could leave that nite and be anywhere up the atlantic coast the next day .
Such a service would require one extra set of palmetto coaches , plus 3 sets of viewliner sleepers .
Presuming these are avaliable , the only major drawback is that no new towns would be served on the FEC , therefore presumably having little local support . it would make a good Miami -atlantic coast -New York option though .

Not likely to happen. Florence crews run that train to Savannah. If the train is extended to Jacksonville that means our crews there are entitled to run the train...which puts the Florence guys out of work. This also means they will transfer in to JAX and it will be hard enough for us to be training new people to run the FEC, as well as retrain these ex FLO guys on our territory. Logistical nightmare. Also, it would mean putting mechanical forces back at JAX and they do not want that.

Noel Weaver wrote:

Matt Johnson wrote:What was the top speed of the inspection train on the FEC? 79 mph?

Matt and others, the top speed we traveled at was 79 MPH but the railroad could easily do much higher. The track is
probably the very best of any freight railroad anywhere and rivals the NEC. Problem was that Amtrak locomotives presently
do no have cab signals that will work on the FEC. It is probably a situation where the computer on the Amtrak locomotive
would have to be modified but I am sure that it can be done.
I can tell you this, the train rode so smooth that you had no conception of the speeds. There were no rough spots anywhere
and this means not even on the drawbridges. You notice the difference immediately at Jacksonville after entering FEC
trackage. I rode trains 98 and 97 up to JAX and back and what a difference, we got thrown all over the place especially on
the former Seaboard trackage between Auburndale and the state owned trackage just north of West Palm Beach. The former
ACL trackage was not quite as bad but it did not come close to the standard of the Florida East Coast.
Amtrak's standard of service in Florida will be much higher when the trains are operating on the Florida East Coast as I
believe they will be sooner or later and the sooner the better.
Noel Weaver

Someone correct me if Im wrong. FEC uses the old GE Harris cab signals that run on 60hz. Amtrak locos I think use 100hz. It will be more than just messing with the computer. Currently we plan on retrofitting 20 locos to be FEC compliant.

Also, Im going to try to attend the St Aug public workshop this coming Wed. PM if you want to talk about that or have any issues you'd like me to raise there.

Noel Weaver wrote: Amtrak's standard of service in Florida will be much higher when the trains are operating on the Florida East Coast as I
believe they will be sooner or later and the sooner the better.
Noel Weaver

Sure sounds that way! I hope it happens this time!