Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

[Suburban Station]

a 2.5 hour trip time is an average speed of 46.5 mph between BON and POR. is it possible to get into the upper 50's without raising the top speed to 90?mph?

I do not think so. I'm thinking to reach average speeds that high you will have to raise the top speed to 110 mph. Falling back to UK examples, where east and west coast mainline trains reach 110 mph top speeds. The 402 miles WCML London to Glasgow typical average train speeds are:
Direct minimum stop elapse time 4.5 hours, average speed 89 mph
Multiple stop elapse time 6 hours, average speed 67 mph

it's been years but I read an article about rail service on Hokkaido and they didn't want to raise speeds due to conflicts with freight movements so they employed an active tilt diesel set were able to average something like 71 mph with a top speed of 80 mph (that was probably a non-stop train of course).

You could stay with 79 and still raise the average by getting rid of what seems like unnecessary slow downs. From North to South:
1) Limit of 30 around Freeport seems too extended before and after. Also train never reaches more than 60ish between BRK and FRE.
2) You'll never fix Woodfords, Portland,
3) In and out of Portland branch at a crawl.
4) 40 mph from there to Rigby
5) 10 or 15 mph limit for a couple of miles coming into Saco.
6) Slows to 60ish near NH/ME border.
7) Slowdown for Dover starts waaay too early
8) 60 or so from EXR to Kingston Jct
9) 45 limit on MBTA between Plaistow and Haverhill.

The ones through congested areas I understand but a lot of the above list is in dead rural nowhere.

A lot of little pieces would all add up to a decent improvement in average speed.

Getting down to 2 hours for POR-BON seems like a goal and doing it by being the best 79 mph railroad it can be would be the most cost effective way and perhaps build enough ridership to justify larger long term investments such as PTC or raising speeds. appreciate the response, it does seem that there are many spots to fix that support this goal.

[charlesriverbranch]

Getting down to 2 hours for POR-BOS seems like a goal and doing it by being the best 79 mph railroad it can be would be the most cost effective way and perhaps build enough ridership to justify larger long term investments such as PTC or raising speeds. appreciate the response, it does seem that there are many spots to fix that support this goal.

According to my timetable, in 1946 the B&M ran some trains that made Boston - Portland in 2 hours 5 minutes, but that was non-stop.

[MEC407]

In 1936, the Flying Yankee was able to make the Boston-Portland run in 1 hour 50 minutes, and that included a stop in Dover. (Coincidentally that's the same running time as today's Concord Coach bus from Portland to South Station)

[Arlington]

Is it fair to guess that those fastest BON-POR times were on the Eastern Route?

I'm all in favor of rebuilding the Newburyport bridge and re-laying track alongside places where a NH road has been placed in the ROW. Where's the will to do that?

[jonnhrr]

9) 45 limit on MBTA between Plaistow and Haverhill.

When and why did that happen? In the past they ran at up to 60 MPH when in T territory. (Still too slow, considering the T has heavier rail than PAR...)

The T runs to Plaistow now? Since when did that happen?

[Rockingham Racer]

The MBTA owns the ROW up to the state line. They don't operate any trains east of Haverhill--at least not yet.

[Dick H]

I do not know the exact MAS on the MBTA "Wildcat" from Wilmington Jct. to Wilmington, but I believe it is less than 60 MPH.

[MEC407]

Is it fair to guess that those fastest BON-POR times were on the Eastern Route?

The ones mentioned above from 1936 and 1946 were Western Route trains.

[gokeefe]

5) 10 or 15 mph limit for a couple of miles coming into Saco.

Trackwork project is underway this year. Slow sections are due to deteriorated bridge timbers on severals spans approaching Saco. Should gain several minutes in improved time keeping.

[gokeefe]

I do not know the exact MAS on the MBTA "Wildcat" from Wilmington Jct. to Wilmington, but I believe it is less than 60 MPH.

Pretty sure it's 40MPH. That's not going to change.

[gokeefe]

In 1936, the Flying Yankee was able to make the Boston-Portland run in 1 hour 50 minutes, and that included a stop in Dover. (Coincidentally that's the same running time as today's Concord Coach bus from Portland to South Station)

It's worth noting that such was accomplished under a completely different safety regime. Track construction standards were different and (as I recall from previous research) speed limits were higher.

If those conditions were permitted to exist today I am more than confident that Amtrak's equipment could match or beat the Flying Yankee's performance.

Put another way ... The B&M of 1936 would probably set the speed limit of today's track conditions at 100-110 MPH (if not slightly more) for the Downeaster and/or other express trains.

[Trinnau]

The MBTA has recently made some speed adjustments.

The 45 mph restriction past Haverhill is gone. It is now 60mph from the State Line to near Haverhill station.
Between Haverhill and Lawrence was raised from 60mph to 70mph for a little over 2.5 miles
Between CFP-LJ and CPW-WJ was raised from 60mph to 79mph, with a 70mph curve restriction near LJ.
Between the last crossing on the Wildcat and CPW-WJ was raised to 79mph North/60mph South. The balance of the Wildcat remains at 40.

And of course the changes at CPW-WJ a couple years back eliminated the 30mph move to the Wildcat branch. It is now a straight move that can be taken at track speed.

[charlesriverbranch]

Put another way ... The B&M of 1936 would probably set the speed limit of today's track conditions at 100-110 MPH (if not slightly more) for the Downeaster and/or other express trains.

Then it seems to me we have to ask the question of whether today's safety standards are actually counterproductive. The B&M ran a lot more trains than Amtrak does today, and passengers on those trains were probably safer than their grandchlidren driving on I-95 are today.

[gokeefe]

The B&M ran a lot more trains than Amtrak does today, and passengers on those trains were probably safer than their grandchlidren driving on I-95 are today.

They probably weren't. The Golden Era's veneer of perfection was in many ways superficial. Serious derailments (per passenger mile) were far more common. That doesn't mean they happenned "often", but on an adjusted basis they were more frequent than they are today.

[Arlington]

Is it fair to guess that those fastest BON-POR times were on the Eastern Route?

The ones mentioned above from 1936 and 1946 were Western Route trains.

Did that Western Route route go via Malden or Woburn back then?