Would we ever have just one Class 1 railroad?

slchub wrote:I don't think the left or the right will have anything to do with it. The govt. doesn't want Amtrak, why would they wish to oversee a "national" railroad?

Type in Progressive under books in Amazon.com there buddy. You might think otherwise. Theres alot of bad books out there said to be Obama's manuel on transforming the United States. Aka... government control. It seems to be working for them so far.

Heres a good place to start your search: http://www.amazon.com/Listen-Your-Mothe ... 011&sr=8-1

Book by a guy the name of Bob Creamer. Read both sides of the argument whether this book is great or sucks.

Well, just as we best not complain about technology replacing the TE&Y craft(s), it would do no good to complain about the gvt. Without the majority of the people giving a damn, it is bound to head the direction in which you state it is. Not a damn thing we can do about it. BOHICA!

UPRR engineer wrote:

QB 52.32 wrote: You're welcome. Neither the "ultra libs" as you call them nor the "ultra cons" control the political landscape of our country. And, as I would see it the "ultra libs" agenda is a mixed and not completely negative bag for the railroads....less reliance on fossil fuels might hurt their coal business but shift other traffic from air or highway to rail. The Bush and Obama administrations' economic intervention with the fnancial and auto sectors had little to do with control, but instead to avert a very painful economic depression which would have hit the railroads even harder than what they've experienced during the past 1.5 years for both traffic and their appetite for capital. Despite political, economic and environmental challenges the rail industry's future is a hell of a lot brighter than its been since WWII --- just look at Warren Buffet's recent major investment in BNSF and tell me it aint so!

You missed a few key points in what happened, might want to go back and study it again. Ya also might want to look into what made this country different then any other country in the world and pay special attention to the free market system and our constitution. I dont agree with one thing you had to say there bud. Sounds alot like life in Russia, which is just what the progressive/liberal/Obama movement is all about. Read up on some of that and let me know what you think there dude.

Don't tell me what I need to study or about my country! If you had a shred of common sense you'd understand that you have no idea who you're talking to or what their background is, let alone what you're talking about.

Here's something YOU need to read and study, especially since you are a moderator on this site. It comes from Trains columnist Fred Frailey in the February issue and is point #3 in his column titled "Seven ways to become a better railfan":

" Shut up. I really don't care about your political opinions. Neither does anyone else. Nothing bores people more. But with frightening regularity, otherwise-smart people get onto the online message boards and engage in vicious so's-your-mama ideological warfare. To those of you who wear your ideology like a badge: You're poisoning the well and will never change anyone's mind anyway. So do the rest of us a favor. Zip up."

If you can't understand anything else, understand the point Frailey is making and keep your political opinions to your self.
Edited for language by UPRR

Let's make an attempt to be civil, please.

Dave Becker

Take it easy there QB 52.32, i was just pointing out a way in which we all might "get merged together" into one super railroad. Your the one who thought you were handing out facts, all i did was tell you that you might want to check again.

Government control of the railroads is a real issue/fear. Besides railfans, there are real railroaders who's jobs can be affected by what we face from Washington. We are a part of Railroad.net also. I hope you can understand that dude.

Government control of the railroads is a real issue/fear.

That might be a real fear (fear is real whether the issue being feared is real or imaginary), but it's not a real issue. Stricter economic regulation of the industry (they are already moderately regulated) and open access ARE real issues, but they shouldn't be confused with industry nationalization.

i think they should nataionlize the track , and make it open access .

While I might not be as blunt, or outspoken as Mr. UPRR, I am in basic agreement with him. The Obama administration is far more left-leaning than any in our history. For example, the agriculture department has seen several appontments of people clearly identified with the animal rights movement to lower- and middle-level administrative positions. It's clear that many of these people do not understand basic economic principles, or in some cases, harbor an outright hostility.

On the other side of the ring are the railroads, the electic utilities, and certain very capital-intensive industries (chemicals, aluminum) whose physical plant is essentially immovable. And as I noted in my previous post, the nature of contemporary railroading, with its overwhelming fixation on economics determined by ruling grades, makes co-operation highly unlikely.

Under the current economic conditions, and judging by some of the opinion i've seen voiced on employment-related and general public opinion-related sites, a push for nationalization does not seem imminent at this time. But that might change if a second-round economic meltdown worsens the unemployment picture and the resistance to jobs on the bottom economic rungs stiffens among displaced baby boomers. And it's becoming increasingly clear that expansion of the public sector is the "remedy" of choice for a substantial component of inside-the-Beltway thinking.

Sooner or later, I believe the remaining major railroads will find themselves in the sights of the collection of radicals who have hijacked the Democratic Party, and unfortunately, the industry's state of extreme concentration makes it a more prominent target. As Mr. Benton has suggested, transformation of key main lines and heavy-industry-dominated districts around the major cities into "shared assets" as developed in the Conrail breakup, might pave the way for a complete re-orientation of the industry, as happened with highway freight 1975-2002, with "open access" as a key feature,

This scenario could be viewed as a paralell to the AT&T restructuring. It would be very hard for the "Big Seven" to swallow. But it beats having to answer to a "railroad czar" with a BA in philosophy from Antioch and an MBA from Vassar.

Asking for help is the hook, line, and sinker.

UPRR engineer wrote:Take it easy there QB 52.32, i was just pointing out a way in which we all might "get merged together" into one super railroad. Your the one who thought you were handing out facts, all i did was tell you that you might want to check again.

Government control of the railroads is a real issue/fear. Besides railfans, there are real railroaders who's jobs can be affected by what we face from Washington. We are a part of Railroad.net also. I hope you can understand that dude.

It doesn't matter whether you're a fan or employee, political opinions, rhetoric, name calling and propaganda have no place on a site devoted to railroading. I think Frailey has hit the nail on the head.
And after going through your posts over the years, I find it funny that when you expressed how railroaders are always worried about their jobs or the USA is going to crumble you never laid it at the feet of the conservatives, their ideologies, their policies or their leaders, with the name calling and rhetoric you've saved for Obama and the liberals, even though they were in power at the time and complicit in bringing about the things you feared.

As a railroader who has seen some pretty dark days and worked in T&E and management, I don't share your pessimism. Politics is like making sausage with checks and balances without the left or right able to completely push through their agendas. Just look at the Massachusetts senate election which will now provide a check & balance with Obama's environmental, economic and healthcare plans. That's the way its supposed to work. But, coming out of it is plenty of propaganda from both sides that needs to be tempered in order for a civil conversation, whether in the grander picture of our country but especially on a site like this devoted to railroading.

Lastly, dude, if you stop and think about it....wouldn't nationalization, though I'm not advocating it and don't see it as a reality in my lifetime, even though you're against it ideologically, probably provide your better ticket to job security? Don't you think what your management in Omaha is planning, like automation or crew size reduction, is much more of a job threat? Hasn't government intervention in railroading (Conrail) and autos (Chrysler) been a bipartisan economic issue over the years, and right or wrong, not lead to socialism? And, can you ignore Warren Buffet's huge play with the BNSF as a vote of free-market confidence in railroading and the economic landscape of our country?

No matter what you, me or any of us believe about politics (or religion for that matter), the bottom line for me is that it doesn't belong here.

Sorry about this stuff there guys, we will be moving "our" debate to PM's so the both of us dont end up in trouble.

I think it would be alot better , if everyone didnt label things , socialist , capitalist , left , right , etc , and just examined ideas on thier own merits . things are lot clearer then .

Great idea: let's start by weighing the merits of nationalizing a freight rail network that, thanks to private capital, regulatory freedom and commitment to standardization, is the envy of the world.

sorry , but the only people i see saying the american system is the envy of the world , is americans .
by the way , i am not advocating nationlisation , i am advocating open access and competition . I am surprised that people seem to not see this as a free market approach .
lets look at some of the points you raise .
Capital , - if the track were made open access , then you would expect the current owners to be well compensated , either the track would be brought off them , or a compensation deal would be negoiated for the loss of thier monopoly situation . That money could then be ploughed into rolling stock or other improvements . at the moment , railroads are stuggling to get enough capital to keep up with traffic increases . hardly a triumph of private capital .

Regulation ,- this one baffles me . not so much that you have quite abit of regulation , ( STB etc ) , but that you seem to think other countries have a whole lot more . I simply dont think this is the case . America has less regulations than it had pre staggers etc , but prior to that it must have been one of the most regulated systems in the world .

standardisation - yes , il give you that one , as far as track standards , couplers etc go . AAR have done a brillant job of that . but signalling systems , operating rules ??? I see railroaders talking on here of major differences between railroads .then there's intermodal and adaption of the iso container standards . You took along time to catch up with that , was probably only the growth of land bridging of improted goods that promoted that .

which brings us to domestic intermodal , and i think the US railroads have missed the boat on that one . i see in trains magazine , UP been lauded for running a domestic intermodal train 1 or 2 times a week . dont they realise , if they want to catch the domestic market , that train needs to be daily ??? . and that alot of countries have been running those trains for 30 years ???

David Benton wrote:I think it would be alot better , if everyone didnt label things , socialist , capitalist , left , right , etc , and just examined ideas on thier own merits . things are lot clearer then .

It's almost impossible to be over here in the states buddy and not be on one side or the other, in favor of something or against it. Lines are getting drawn big time.

The big huge surge of traffic and need for more capacity is a long ways off yet. Open access is a nightmare of an idea, look at how much Amtrak whines. There would be a price war and the amount of capital return would fall which would lead to less money spent on the track and motors. Can you see that there David?