Will the union come out ahead?

I really don't see how TWU 234's memebers can come out ahead on this. They are giving up their pay by going on strike, and they will be losing their healthcare coverage soon. How long will it take before any gains they might win by keeping down their healthcare contributions are erased by what they lost by not working for days/weeks?

Is there anyone on the board who knows the numbers well enough to lay this out?

As I see it you would need to know:
-wages lost/day
-cost of benefits lost/day
-possible wage gain in new contract
-possible benefit gain in new contract
-length of strike

As I see it, many of the members are already out probably around $500 take home pay. That's only about $10/week over the course of a year. But as the strike goes on, and if they have to pick up their premiums while on strike the numbers could change significantly.

NOTE:I would like to totally ignore the issue of whether TWU 234 is being irresponsible to the public.

flynnt wrote:I really don't see how TWU 234's memebers can come out ahead on this.

I don't either. It's abundantly clear that there is no additional bailout money to fund a wage and benefits package of the cost the TWU is asking for. The best they can hope for would be to extend the current contract through March 2007, so they can get back to the table and seek increases as soon as an increase in state funding gets passed.

I think it's looking a lot like the NHL situation, where the players ended up taking a package that looked a lot like what they were offered before the lockout. The pot of TV money that funded past increases had dried up, just like the state money for SEPTA. Just hope it doesn't take as long for reality to set in for the TWU as it did the NHLPA.

Matt Mitchell
(former member of the hockey referees' union of the Washington area)

I guess the union really has to weigh that question. They must have thought it worth their while to walk. Nowadays, a strike doesn't really benefit the workers. If anything, I would argue it benefits the company, financially speaking that is. The TWU has made so many concessions over the years to preserve the healthcare package they currently have, I don't think the union really had any other alternative. How much longer were they going to work without a contract? True, their health package would have remained the same throughout; but, at some point they have to settle the issue. I thought that the deal that involved EVERYONE, TWU and SEPTA management, paying a percentage of the health premium was a fair deal. The union thought so also, SEPTA rejected it. I think that both sides have to weigh in the long term effects of this work stoppage. And as far as the NHL situation, I believe Matt Mitchell hit the nail on the head. I think the same could be said for the NFL in the late 80's (remember the scabs), Major League Baseball in the mid 90's (and they still never fully recovered), or the Air Traffic Controllers that Reagan canned. What is unique is the nature of SEPTA's bargaining leverage. No retro pay, no binding arbitration (at least none I can remember), and very little reason to cave in thus far politically. I think the TWU chose the best time possible for their work stoppage, which really is the only thing they have to their advantage. The RRD has shown it cannot cope with the extra capacity (wires down the last few days at various locations).

IMO SEPTA's stituation is worse than any of the sports teams mentioned. They lost some of their fan bases but they regained their broadcast contracts. The networks did not join together and say "well, that's it, we won't show any games even after you start playing again".

SEPTA on the other hand has to deal with both Harrisburg and the business community. This morning's Inky has pieces on how the strike is hurting chances of getting any kind of dedicated state funding, and how some businesses will reconsider new or expanded operations in the region.

I don't want to start a thread about how dysfunctional the whole health-care system is becoming, but at least as far as Harrisburg is concerned the strike is playing into the hands of the politicians who want to cut Philadelphia off from the rest of the state. It may not right but it's reality, at least for some people.

i agree...the union is shooting itself in the foot long term. but very few people in this town think long term. the strike is probably good for the union leadership, not so good for the rank in file. the leadership can look militant and say all kinds of rosy things to the membership, but eventually the fully paid healthcare is going away. going on strike now just makes it harder for real funding to come from harrisburg which means service cuts and job losses within the union.

I think the fact that SEPTA's management rejected the "everyone pays" a little for health care says alot. The ball is in there court (management's) now, - the Union agreed to that, so long as it was fair, and EVERYONE had to pay very little for health care - not unreasonable. But management has to protect their own and their own CRAZY benefits, and won't concide that.

THAT should say a lot to Harrisburg about the folks at 1234 Market.

What does the union honestly have to loose? Pay for its members in teh short term? Or deal with the reprocussions of a crappy contract and give backs FOREVER. Once something is given back, it never comes back....... The Union is thinking long term, they have nothing to loose.

At NJT, (rail at least, were I work) we pay a very small amount towards our healthcare, it increases, depending on the plan you want, and how large your family is, but in today's world, whatever we pay is peanuts. But as a public transportation front line employee, that is one thing that is criticial NOT to give back or change is health care benefits. Sick days are very limited, disicpline rules are strict, and conditions can be diplorable. Filthy dirty people, money, equipment, and with the risk of various types of flu's and sicknesses going around, health coverage is even more important.

Health coverage to any type of bus/trolley/rail worker is a sacred cow.....DON'T $#@^ with it!!!!

Jtgshu wrote:I think the fact that SEPTA's management rejected the "everyone pays" a little for health care says alot.

SEPTA didn't reject that, and in fact has said that non-unionized employees will get the same benefits package and pay the same premiums as the TWU members. Maloney (?) said as much--I think it was in today's paper.

What SEPTA did reject was a TWU demand that the same co-pays be extended to all of SEPTA's other unions, particularly the railroad unions, which have their own contracts. SEPTA is not in a position to unilaterally impose those conditions on the railroad workers--period.

That struck me as something of a face-saving measure from the TWU negotiators--asking for something they knew SEPTA couldn't provide in order to appear that they were making a concession as well as to give TWU leadership some cover from criticism that their members would have to pay part of the health premium while the railroad workers weren't.

Jtgshu wrote:I think the fact that SEPTA's management rejected the "everyone pays" a little for health care says alot. The ball is in there court (management's) now, - the Union agreed to that, so long as it was fair, and EVERYONE had to pay very little for health care - not unreasonable. But management has to protect their own and their own CRAZY benefits, and won't concide that.

THAT should say a lot to Harrisburg about the folks at 1234 Market.

That's what kills me about this -- the union's proposal that everybody pays for health care was perfectly sound. If SEPTA management wasn't so set on having their cake and eating it too, there wouldn't even be a strike to discuss. Sure makes management look stupid at a time when they can't afford to look any dumber than Harrisburg already thinks they are.

What does the union honestly have to loose? Pay for its members in teh short term?

Actually, they aren't going to. On the news the other night, it was said that TWU 234 doesn't have a strike fund set up, so once the workers get paid today, that's it for them. They're on their own for everything. (I haven't heard whether UTU 1594 has a strike fund or not, but all the media attention's been on the TWU folks.)

JeffK wrote:IMO SEPTA's stituation is worse than any of the sports teams mentioned. They lost some of their fan bases but they regained their broadcast contracts. The networks did not join together and say "well, that's it, we won't show any games even after you start playing again".

No, it really is worse for the NHL. Gate revenue is down, I believe, which is analogous (in both nature and scale) to the ridership and revenue loss SEPTA will experience after the strike is over.

But TV revenue has cratered in the NHL's case (and did so before the lockout), and the big revenue increases of the 1990s are gone for every league whose initials are not NFL or NASCAR. The other leagues have TV contracts, but the networks offered far less than what they had in the past. ESPN told the NHL they would broadcast the games more or less for free, which is why the NHL rejected the offer and signed a deal with OLN.

In the SEPTA context, that's analogous to Harrisburg not only capping SEPTA operating subsidies at inadequate levels, but actually reducing them substantially.

I am the Benefits Director for an educational entity in Pa. I think what is lost on Septa (and TEACHERS for that matter) is how out of control heath insurance costs are. We have 1000 employees and since 2000 are insurance cost has increased almost 500%! In that same time frame employees contribution has remained the same (less than 2% of premium). This go around on our contracts we have given the unions the choice of a cheaper health plan or higher contributions. It is hard to continually give and give, especially when you rely on federal, state and local money to operate. The money is not there, so something has to give...it sucks, but that is reality.

I understand the concerns of workers, but a little reality check needs to comes into these negotiations and consessions have to be made. You either take the money and a lower plan, or you take the good plan but flip some of the bill. National average for employee contribution towards their benefits is somewhere aroundd 30% of premium.

As far as the "we give and give and give and we are done giving back", I find that living in the past does not change the reality of the now. The way things are in this country and region "now" are there isn't enough money for both raises and free health insurance. If unions don't like that then they should unite and get behind to support politicians who are going to put a stop to the insurance industries ever increasing profit ceiling at the expense of you the worker and tax payer!

What kills me about governement run entities is you get screwed either way......you are either going to pay a part of premium or pay higher taxes down the road........

If by the term "Union" you mean the rank and file workers the answer is no, they will not come out better, though no matter how the strike turns out they will be told by their Union leaders that it was "all worth it. We showed Septa a thing or two". If by Union you mean the leadership , yes the strike will be seen as a great opportunity to make the workers think they are getting their money's worth out of their union dues. A strike, any strike, makes it look to the workers that they really need their union leaders. I have seen too much of this in industry, unions trying to justify their dues collection by periodically playing this game of "you guys need us leaders to protect you from (fill in the appropriate bogeyman) and we always have your interests at heart". To me that's a stone amphora of bovine feces. The ONLY folks who will benefit by this charade are the union leaders, but the rank and file workers will suspend reality and somehow convince themselves that"it was all worth it".

It is true that SEPTA cannot unilaterally impose any healthcare package on their railroad unions, of which both are working without contracts. However, if SEPTA did agree to the 'sliding scale' healthcare contributions in the TWU contract, with the 'pattern bargaining' that SEPTA has in negotiating its union contracts, the UTU (representing railroad conductors also) and the BLET (Locomotive Engineers) would almost certainly get the same deal that the TWU does. SEPTA isn't even talking to either union right now. They are waiting for the conclusion of this current contract battle. That is part of the reason SEPTA has remained steadfast in their bargaining stance. If the TWU wins this out, there's almost no way the other unions will falter. But, when and if the TWU does give in, the domino effect will take place throughout the Authority.

How long have the RR unions been in arbitration? Aren't they allowed to strike after all other avenues have been exhausted, which includes the arbitration stage that they are now in?

The RRD unions at SEPTA haven't been to arbitration as of yet. They have to go through a lot more hurdles: mediation, Presidential Emergency Boards, cooling off periods, etc. It all deals with the Railway Labor Act. This process can take up to 3 years to come full circle, at which point the union has the right to self help (aka strike). By the time this happens, SEPTA will have saved their money and are generally willing to be more flexible at the negotiations. Remember, they don't pay retroactive; therefore, they are in NO RUSH to deal. SEPTA thus far has been stalling, unwilling to talk until the TWU issue is resolved.

I believe I read somewhere that they already went through the Presidential Emergency Board, and that may have been months ago. To bad they can't strike, as SEPTA can put them off for as long as possible. No wonder they can't get enough workers for the RR.