Why didn't SEPTA take over the Clockers to NYP?

Why did SEPTA not jump on the opportunity to serve NYP when the Clockers were discontinued? Was it a disagreement with NJT? Or did InEPTA simply live up to its name?

Jump? Opportunity?

-otto-

Let me clarify. Why didn't NJT and SEPTA run the NEC as a joint service between Philly and NYP after the Clockers were discontinued?

M&Eman wrote:Let me clarify. Why didn't NJT and SEPTA run the NEC as a joint service between Philly and NYP after the Clockers were discontinued?

Money.

Equipment.

Slots into Penn.

Money.

The clockers belonged to NJT ever since Conrail got out of the business. Amtrak was operating the clockers for NJT.

M&Eman wrote:Why did SEPTA not jump on the opportunity to serve NYP when the Clockers were discontinued? Was it a disagreement with NJT? Or did InEPTA simply live up to its name?

SEPTA never had a claim to the Clocker service. Indeed from what I heard from Amtrak crews NJT does not own whatever rights there are to the 'Clocker' name. All NJT got was the two or three peak hour slots through the North River tubes which were vacated by the ending of Clocker service. These slots have become more Trenton Express trains but by all rights could have been given to Midtown Direct or NJCL trains. SEPTA has no access to New York Penn station to begin with, and just because the Clockers were going away was no reason to give it to them. NJT has a slightly greater need for Trenton Expresses than Bucks or Montgomery county commuters have for service to NYP. The only way SEPTA could have been involved in this would be if they had negotiated with NJT and Amtrak to extend the NJT Trenton Expresses to Philadelphia as R7 trains. However, I'd be somewhat surprised if Amtrak took a move that so blatantly competed with their service lying down. Those are Amtrak's tracks and they have to pay for the upkeep, so they're not going to place themselves in a position to be competing with the state subsidized commuter rail tennants.

I'm quite disappointed that SEPTA and PennDOT couldn't have built a Morrisville Yard station for NJT. This would have provided the Bucks and Montgomery County Manhattan bound commuters an NJT station on the PA side of the river while not requiring the messy negotiations which would be involved in running NJT's NEC trains through to Philadelphia. Also such a station would be useful if or when SEPTA finally gets some of the Cross County Metro built.

edit: In light of TR-00's post I retract what I said about Amtrak not giving up the Clocker name. I was misinformed, sorry for the inconvenience.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:
Money.

Equipment.

Slots into Penn.

Money.

With the cancellation of the Clockers, shouldn't have freeed up some tracks in Penn?

Would it been that hard for SEPTA to schedule at least two trains a day into and out of NYP during Rush hours, kinda like an R7 Express Special? And the rest of the trains would be the regular R7 to Trenton?

The stops would be the Suburban, 30th St, Trenton, Newark Penn, and then NYP. They could easily pick-up extra fares from normal NJT riders (both ways) going to Newark Penn, NYP and Trenton.

As for money, I am sure Rendell would find some way to bail them out as usual, plus with them running into Penn they then would have a real reason to ask for more funding.

With the cancellation of the Clockers, shouldn't have freeed up some tracks in Penn?

The Clockers were not canceled; they were taken over by NJT and became Trenton expresses. No slots became available in Penn. (Frankly, they need more NEC trains going to Hoboken now...)

I think lack of bathrooms also did SEPTA in on this deal. And the fact that SEPTA will be getting rid of the P/P fleet. And the thought of NJ and PA working together, which is a dead end.

At the very least it would have been nice for SEPTA to offer some kind of limited service PHL to Trenton. But reverse thinking SEPTA can't construct a thought that complex.

If nothing else, it would give those push-pulls something to do instead of sitting in the yard all day. How about a run like this...
30th
N Phila
Holmesburg
Cornwells
Trenton

Just gets me that NJT takes over the clockers and Philly commuters get shafted again. Need express to Trenton, its Amtrak or the R7 poke-a-long.

And for my two cents: Could anyone imagine SEPTA's equipment (with the exception of the push-pulls) going to New York City in their current state? Folks, the Silverliners (II's, III's, and IV's) are JUNK! It's a miracle they make it up the hill from 30th to Paoli everyday, and some of it barely does that. Even SEPTA's AEM-7's, and the ALP-44 in particular, are breaking down fairly often nowadays. The bathroom issue can be easily resolved on the bombardier coaches. What can't be resolved is that the majority of SEPTA's fleet would fall apart enroute to New York on a daily basis. Silverliner II's generally can't make it over 80mph! Silverliner IV's trip an electrical ground somewhere in the consist if they are asked to maintain speeds around 85+ if only for a few minutes at a time. It would be nice for SEPTA to have the opportunity, but it would be a nightmare for the riding public. I could almost guarantee a break per week if SEPTA operated clocker service with the current fleet they have.

Perhaps it should be run the way Metro-North West of Hudson service is run; NJT would operate the service. SEPTA would contrubute money to NJT equipment purchases, and NJT and SEPTA would split operating costs appropriatly, with SEPTA completely funding trains that express between Newark and Trenton, NJT completely sponsoring trains that express 30th St. to Trenton. Locals and limiteds would be split 60% NJT, 40% Septa, based on trackage percentages. This would create a system that completely uses NJT equipment. Equipment that is fit for a hundred mile intercity run.

Most trains would follow a limited style schedule that would perhaps, besides Center City, stop at N. Philly, Holmesburg, Cornwells Heights, Trenton, Maybe Hamilton, Princeton Junction, sometimes New Brunswick, Metropark, and then the urban stops.

This fills the Clocker's shoes and then some at a price useful to Trenton Shuffle commuters. This would essentially restore the quality and affordability of NYP to Philly service under the PRR until A-Day, when AmRip prices forced the average commuter to use SEPTA subsidized commuter service, which stops in every backyard in the Delaware Valley, and NJDOT subsidized commuter service, whos only equipment that was less than half a century old was the (then) relatively small fleet of Jersey Arrows.

A replacement for the Clocker service along the lines of what was suggested above (limited stops Suburban to NYP at a fare lower than Amtrak but higher than the present SEPTA/NJT connection) has been proposed previously and was studied by the DVRPC in 2003 as part of the Regional Rail Improvement Study.

The findings were favorable: The service is feasible from both a technical and scheduling standpoint. Running time would be under 1:50. There are several markets the trains could tap, but cost or revenue projections were not done for this study.

I don't think the full report is online, and the executive summary is too long to post here. We'll be testifying about it and other things on Wednesday at the House Democratic Policy Committee hearing (City Hall, 11:00 http://www.pahouse.com/pr/Stetler/095011106.htm)