Which One Would You Pick - Newtown or Quakertown??

If you had the power to restore service on one of those two routes, which one would you restore, why that route as opposed to the other, and how would you do it?

Why do we have to choose...? I'd choose both every time. However, the NIMBYs don't seem to want Newtown rail service back, so go with the Bethlehem Branch. Path of least resistance and all that...

If you had the power to restore service on one of those two routes, which one would you restore, why that route as opposed to the other, and how would you do it?

OK, if I had to pick between "the lady and the tiger"...

1) Where? Quakertown.

2) Why?

A--Access to signifigantly greater population than the Newtown Branch. Enough of these folks still commute in the same north-south direction as the railroad to be prime candidates for wooing out of their cars.

B--Rail service will provide relief to an overburdened semi-local highway which runs closely parallel. Even the PA Turnpike may benefit.

C--The line enjoys increasing political support from both Bucks and Montgomery, as well as Senator Specter.

D--Completion to Qtown makes it possible (however remote) that further northward expansion into the Lehigh Valley may happen. OTOH, once you reach Newtown...that's it.

E--There is no anti-rail shadow campaign being waged against it - Bryn Athyn, I'm talking to YOU!

F--This segment of the line has no major right-of-way encroachment issues, whereas the Newtown branch has been virtually buried, severed, or otherwise blocked in places. The funky rail alignments in the Hatfield-Souderton area aren't really an issue if both tracks are being fully restored.

3) How?

A--Restore both tracks of the Bethlehem Branch above Lansdale to 60 MPH standards. Use second-hand diesel locos in the 3000-3500 HP range (retrofitted with HEP packages!), hauling our existing Bombardier coaches push-pull style. Run local from Qtown to Lansdale, make a stop or two (near Merck?) along the Stony Creek Branch, pick up more folks at Norristown, run express to Manayunk and over the restored river bridge via the Cynwyd line...and go straight into Upper Level 30th St.

B--Failing that, make it autonomous from SEPTA. Currently this idea is gaining some momentum. Of course this means it will be a Qtown-Lansdale shuttle with a forced chance to the electric MUs of the R5. But that may still be able to yield some benefits to the commuter..."no service at all" being the third choice, which benefits nobody.

It'll take big buck$, but thank God it's no SVM pork-barrel debacle. Of course there's a LOT more to the details of this project; I'm only doing a thumbnail sketch here. Just cut the crap and start. It shouldn't take a decade to do this! Get. It. Done.

Use second-hand diesel locos in the 3000-3500 HP range (retrofitted with HEP packages!)

There are 4000 HP locos out there with HEP already (Amtrak's AMD103, which they seem to want to divest).

It shouldn't take a decade to do this

It should have been done yesterday.

There are 4000 HP locos out there with HEP already (Amtrak's AMD103, which they seem to want to divest).

Good point. Let's give "Jenny" and her sisters a home on SEPTA for this purpose.

It should have been done yesterday.

Preach it, brother! Amen.

$%#$*% Bob, that's a good question.

Besides having better local support, service to Quakertown would have more gross benefit, including more passenger-miles rail ridership and more vehicle-miles of auto travel reduced. It also would make a rail option available to more people (much of the Newtown catchment area has other rail options, albeit with a drive to the station), and it opens the door to extending service into the Lehigh Valley.

As much as I love the Newtown line and still think it could provide a viable service in the future, it makes all the sense in the world to restore Quakertown/Shelly service now. It is an active rail corridor with a constituency that wants and needs passenger rail service (not that Northampton and Newtown don't) and currently benefits from significantly more momentum. Even though they are in different stages of use, all of the stations along the Q/S line are still intact and in reasonably good condition with adequate parking, Shelly excepted of course. Rolling stock and a diesel maintenance base are obvious issues that would need to be worked out but I'm sure an arrangement could be worked out with Amtrak for fueling and light maintenance at 30th Street, along the same lines as is currently done for NJT Atlantic City line power. Colorado Railcar should also be considered as an alternative to used equipment.

One other aspect that's occasionally been touched on is the eventual restoration of service to the Lehigh Valley. With a proposed slots operation and Bethworks still on the table, an additional source of ridership might just be waiting to be tapped, and a coordinated startup of service to those venues would be a perfect marketing tool for both ventures.

as far as those two go, i would pick Quarkertown... but as a needed transit line the boulevard Subway beats them all (I'm aware however that the capital costs are probihitive)

thank god the pennsy and reading had deep pockets in the 20s or we wouldn't have anything

I'd like to pick newtown because its a much shorter route, and theoretically would be easier to restore if all of the entities that damaged the ROW infrastructure paid their share to restore those assets (Shady Lane culvert, bridge in Newtown, etc). I think the population density along the newtown line is higher than areas such as Quakertown, and I also believe that residents along the Southampton/Churchville corridor would be more likely to work in Center City than someone living in Quakertown. Remember, from Southampton, the trip time is about 50 minutes or so, whereas Quakertown to Center City is more like 1.5-2 hours (why do people commute such insane distances??).

Unfortunately Newtown has some major obstacles, like where do all the riders park their cars as there really is little land available for parking without using eminent domain. It would probablly be easier to start a commuter service on the New Hope branch than Newtown simply because the infrastructure is there, and the land is there.

I can't vote for Quakertown because I don't think its reasonable to provide rail service for people that live in East Jabib. If you want to live in East Jabib, you should not expect the government to build and subsidize a railroad to Center City. Spreading the system out does not make sense when needs of riders closer to the city are not being met. First is in the form of the missing of a Blvd subway.

As Whovian pointed out in another forum, we should be doing much more with the infrastructure we have in and around the city that would enhance the service we have, making it more attractive to more riders. Remember, the more riders we have, the louder the shout will be when someone tries to detract from the service. One neat idea Whovian had was an express Center City-Neshaminy falls service on the R3 over the former B&O (not that CSX would go for it).

Right now, our transit system can't afford 24hour subway service, express El service, or even adequate El service to the point you're not crushed like a sardine in those smelly cars.

For these reasons I have to stick to supporting Newtown. Its much closer to the city, its a shorter route, which could be done in sections (such as restoring service to Southampton in a "Phase I" approach. If the suburbs were willing to kick in more money to support these services, that might be okay, but I'm against any expansion that detracts from improving/maintaining services in the city. The city is the economic engine of the region and it has a terrible transit system at the moment. We need to improve on that before we build a gold plated railroad to nowhere.

Quakertown for sure! This line would probably be a instant success as well as the potential to go back to Allentown/Bethlehem. It should have never been for the most part abandoned in the 80s. AS for Newtown-just too many problems with infrastructure for example not to mention NIMBYism. QTN offers more bang for the buck! MACTRAXX

Divorced from political concerns, and adequaetly funded, yes, Newtown looks good. However, why risk the battle at this point, on a line that would be SEPTA's first modern service restoration (on the railroad at least). I've watched as the battles here in Mass. over the Greenbush line have been fought, and all its done is more than doubled the price tag and created a lot of strident enemies of transit on our south shore. An unpopular project, even if its a small but vocal minority doing the squawking, can do much to destroy future support for more restorations/extensions.

Better, both technically and politically, to start at the most feasible and work up.

octr202 wrote:I've watched as the battles here in Mass. over the Greenbush line have been fought, and all its done is more than doubled the price tag and created a lot of strident enemies of transit on our south shore. An unpopular project, even if its a small but vocal minority doing the squawking, can do much to destroy future support for more restorations/extensions.

Agreed about the public relations issue, but I don't think Newtown has much in common with Greenbush. There the railroad went right through the center of town. Moorestown might be a better local analogy.

Neither. I'd prefer to see Reading and West Chester service restored first.

But if I had to choose between the two, it would be Quakertown first, Newtown later.

The Quakertown line has towns that grew up around the railroad, and it's far away from existing Regional Rail lines. The Newtown line cross the West Trenton line and runs near the Warminster line, and you'd be taking ridership away from the existing lines. Plus, it's going to be impossible to restart rail service if there isn't local political support.

I believe the Elwyn to Wawa rail service restoration is going to be the first modern restoration, sometime in 2010, if construction begins in 2007.

The one I would like to see more is the newtown branch, mostly because I live near it and It would make my life easier and it would just be cool to see it return.

But the one that would attract the most riders and be the most useful is Quakertown. mostly because there is no existing rail sevice or really even mass transit, and the right of way is cleared and intact and seems to have the most community and county support of any mass transit project short of the Roosevelt Boulevard subway.