Where's the Trolley on Route 23--SEPTA's broken promise

Can we get one of them for the Newtown line?

Excellent idea.

With the ADA regulations what makes anyone think that Philly is really ready for another compliant light rail line like the 23?

Unfortunately with recent events on the 15, I think the 23 will only work with the use of low floor LRV's. Of course PCC's would be nice and it would be wishful thinking that the next round of LRV's could incorporate some of their features. I think the idea is to push for the 23 before SEPTA orders cars for the subway surface routes.

Between now and then, lets hope the 15 works out all its troubles otherwise no lawmaker is going to push for reinstating service or give SEPTA money to ressurect any trolley lines.

I fail to see why the route 23 or newtown service restoration should be viewed as a priority.

Route 23 will suffer from all the potenial issues that 15 has, but only worse in a lot of ways. Double parking on Germantown ave is horrible for the entire length. Septa seems more than willing to blow money on the so called "Transit First" traffic control systems without using them. And short of getting state of the art low level trolleys the ADA issues will always be there. That ignores that very real fact that the same area is served by two rail lines already. So the idea of simply throwing money at this project, veruses doing a large study of Northwest Philadelphia's transit options, seems awfully rash.

The issue of Newtown is pretty similar. For the most part all that's left is the ROW. The capital investment will be very large and the ability to attract a large amount of riders is in doubt. There are rail options within 15 minutes of many areas along the Newtown ROW, many of these stations are not full every morning. Not to mention that this area has not been served by the radial, center city bound trains in over 20 years. Ones has to think that the job paterns could have changed greatly. People living in that area could just as easily be commuting to corporate parks going east-west along the turnpike.

Good points, but won't be a very popular opinion here. It's been said before, but what's really needed in Philadelphia is a big, multi-party, coordinated effort. Jobs are growing mostly in the suburbs, but imporve transit into the city and lower taxes that deter business and you have part of a winning combination.

As for Rt. 23, it serves more than just Chestnut Hill. Trolleys are more efficient and quieter. Again, if you get the city to take the trolleys seriously and give them priority at lights and enfore parking regulations, you've got a winner. If they only get enough money to do the job halfway, and the city continues to act like transit has nothing to do with them, then yes, Newtown and Rt 23 aren't worth the investment.

I fail to see why the route 23 or newtown service restoration should be viewed as a priority.

What would you prioritize in their place?

Again, if you get the city to take the trolleys seriously and give them priority at lights and enfore parking regulations, you've got a winner.

I still don't know why the 15 operators aren't using that system. They are making alot of extra stops on Girard because of this. Some of the operators who are 'comfortable' with the trolleys are flying now only to get stopped by red lights.

As far as trolleys getting stopped by cars & tucks blocking the tracks, they should have had a few transit cops out and ready to go with their ticket pads. I didn't see any transit cops anywhere along Rt 15. Yet there are still 3 or 4 clustered together at 15th Street chewing the fat with the token booth guy.

I still have faith that the 15 will resolve its issues in time (as far as lateness is concerned). Once that is accomplished, all the whiners will eventually go away and no one will bat an eye as far as what kind of vehicle they are riding. Unfortunately, the riding public could care less what they are riding. They want what gets them there on time. Mess with their schedule and you're going to get alot of complaints. The flip side is what the trolley does for the neighborhoods in general. I think eventually you're going to see more activity along the streets in the form of sidewalk dining, etc. That can be attributed to the trolley. They are the benefits that matter, that attract new residents and make the investment worthwhile. Torresdale Avenue certainly needs all the investment it can get, same goes for Germantown Ave.

We definitely need politicians on our side or nothing will get done. Political willpower got us the 15 and that is the only thing that will get us anything else. SEPTA left to its own devices would be a all-bus system by now.

PARailWiz wrote: As for Rt. 23, it serves more than just Chestnut Hill. Trolleys are more efficient and quieter. Again, if you get the city to take the trolleys seriously and give them priority at lights and enfore parking regulations, you've got a winner.

Only problem with the traffic preemption system for trolleys is that there is no reason you couldn't put the same system on buses. In other words, it's not trolley's with traffic preemption or buses without(at least it doenst have to be).

Additinally, I am unsure that even with traffic preemption it would make much of a difference. If someone is picking up the trolley at the corner before a light, you're going to miss that light anyway.

Again, if you get the city to take the trolleys seriously and give them priority at lights and enfore parking regulations, you've got a winner.

I've got to agree with this. It ain't hard. the transit priority system is in place...anyone have any official input as to what the problem is? Is it installed the length of the route? Anyone have any input as to how it is working on Lancaster ave?

w.r.t. parking - a simple solution. give a $150 cash only bounty to any tow operator who tows any vehicle that is blocking a transit vehicle. allow operators to issue a citation for blocking their vehicle and then 'call it in' on a radio. the tow operators would be on that car/truck/suv like vultures. they don't really tow them all that far - they basically hide them until they get their cash, then they return them to the owner. put signs up along the route to inform wayward parkers how to retrieve their vehicles, like the signs that private driveways sport all over town. That's one idea, I'm sure there are others. Point is, this is a problem that can be solved quite easily if there is the will. Gotta have a can-do attitude!

The 23 and the R7/R8 serve different roles - the 23, however long the route is, is really designed to circulate people up and down the avenue, not necessarially to transport them to CC. If I lived up in the northwest, I'd be urging the merchants (who are actually quite well organized up there) to clamor for a 'circulator' trolley, that would permit shoppers to board/depart as often as they liked with a validation from the shops along the avenue, sort of like the free parking arrangement that they currently have. The trolleys would have to come every ten or so minutes, though and a better loop would have to be developed on the southern end, instead of driving through G-town depot.

this would not be to replace the 23!

but it would help sew chestnut hill and mt. airy together and make them both more of a destination.

My understanding is that despite all the investments being made for Transit First on route 10, they remain off because all the stops would have to be moved to after the intersections. This of course would require a change in no parking areas and apparently the locals are not too keen on this. Which makes sense to me, especially given the amount of small businesses that might have grown accustomed to having the spots in front of their shops.

The sad thing is you can see the money in the capital budget for these projects and then they go unused .

they remain off because all the stops would have to be moved to after the intersections

really? whys that? it would seem that a system like that would allow a vehicle that is stopping to board/unboard passengers and then trigger the transit first green to immediately get moving. no need to move the stops around.

Finally, last night riding the route 15 trolley was a joy - it arrived on time and man, did it ever fly. Here is what this has to do with this thread– the traffic lights. I boarded the trolley at Front & Girard, and we had to stop at the light at Frankford Ave. We then ran non-stop all the way to Susquehanna, all the lights changed for us as we approached. The operator did not even slow down- just rang the bell like crazy at each intersection. In fact, we were passing cars, it was great –also, we lit up the street pretty good with the pole arcing like crazy.

I have traveled this section of Girard for years and never was able to even drive this stretch without hitting one red light; even at 400AM. This was the fastest I ever traveled from Front &Girard to Richmond & Lehigh in over 15 years. Since the operator was talking with someone, I did not get chance to ask about the Transit First system. I cannot confirm the system was used and it could have been just a freak coincidence that all the lights changed for us. But again, I never saw this happen and I have traveled this stretch of road millions of times.

ktrain wrote:I fail to see why the route 23 or newtown service restoration should be viewed as a priority.

The issue of Newtown is pretty similar. For the most part all that's left is the ROW. The capital investment will be very large and the ability to attract a large amount of riders is in doubt. There are rail options within 15 minutes of many areas along the Newtown ROW, many of these stations are not full every morning. Not to mention that this area has not been served by the radial, center city bound trains in over 20 years. Ones has to think that the job paterns could have changed greatly. People living in that area could just as easily be commuting to corporate parks going east-west along the turnpike.

One thing that we often seem to overlook is the reverse commute. While the residents of North and Southampton can make a "lateral" drive to the R2/R3, there is no viable option for workers coming out of the city to reach the jobs in those areas. Try driving up or down Rt 232 between 7-9 or 4-6 these days and it makes no difference which direction you are going. The stretch between Fox Chase and Southampton is a nightmare that the 24 does nothing to alleviate, and Rockledge's solution to the congestion was to put up another &@%^$#@ light!

Ah well the reverse commuting arguement is a good one, if you believe SEPTA actually runs the RR with the intentions of using it for reverse commuters. By virtue of both the scheduling and fare structure reverse commuters are encouraged to use BSL, MFL, SS lines to bus routes or in some horrible cases just bus routes to get to suburban job centers / service areas.

Perhaps the most horrible example are the dreaded 124 and 125 that get to idle in traffic on i76. The schedule says from center city to the plaza in KOP in 50 minutes, even during rush hour. To me this seems like fantasy (this would be the shortest possible time), with the trip taking at least a hour normally and with a traffic snarl....lets not give that too much thought.

On the other hand bus connections off of suburban rail lines are not encouraged on nearly the same level. It's tough not to look at the 24 and say to yourself, gee can't we travel most of that same distance via rail. Given the fox chase come once every day or two it's hard to see why they couldn't have a bus connection waiting. But they don't...

How about a combination of a limited service outbound on the R7 and quick trip across the Dannehower Bridge to get to the strip malls and KOP proper? What about a R5 limited to Stratford, Devon or Paoli connecting with a bus to Chesterbrook Corportate center?

The fare structure has been discussed at length on this forum. But here's the angle here: ever wonder why Cynwyd and Bala are zone 2 stations? Well lets be honest, if they were zone 1 people reverse commuting would love this line. No worries about traffic in center city for the 44 or 121. Yet these things seem to have zero effect on SEPTA's planning.

How about a combination of a limited service outbound on the R7 and quick trip across the Dannehower Bridge to get to the strip malls and KOP proper? What about a R5 limited to Stratford, Devon or Paoli connecting with a bus to Chesterbrook Corportate center?

I think you mean the R6. The Rt 100 connects at Gulph Mills with the 124 and 125, I think that's why there's no bus from NTC direct. You're quite right, of course, SEPTA "misses the bus" (sorry) with bus connections and the railroad, especially with regards to reverse commuting, and the way the fare system is structured is part of the problem. Again, where SEPTA is concerned, it's not a lack of ability to improve the system, it's a lack of will to improve the system.