What If - L&HR to PA

If Conrail did not rip out the L&HR down toward PA could it have been an attractive routing for the NYS&W for business to Allentown and elsewhere?

What were the possibilities (if any)?

Would we have seen more sizeable trains on the "Q" to alternate desinations via Sparta?

BlockLine_4111 wrote:If Conrail did not rip out the L&HR down toward PA could it have been an attractive routing for the NYS&W for business to Allentown and elsewhere?

What were the possibilities (if any)?

Would we have seen more sizeable trains on the "Q" to alternate desinations via Sparta?

I've thought about this before. It would have made an intresting turn of events, It would have atleast made a detour route to Bingo via allentown if nothing else. Also the 142 would have a more direct route to phillipsburg.

The absence of a connection at the Maybrook end doomed the L&HR as a through route. Once PennCentral had NYNH&H, L&HR was toast.

I suspect the Allentown-Bethlehem area will remain a major terminal for rail freight. NS's hubs at BethSteel and Rutherfurd seem to be doing fine as places where freight comes off the rails and gets on the highway to NY NJ and eastern PA

John Treen told me that when Delaware Otsego took over in 1980 they held an employees meeting at Little Ferry. They were told that the NYS&W's west end would eventually be reopened and that they would get to Allentown. My assumption is they planned to buy the L&HR to Belvidere with trackage rights beyond.

When the NYSW started working on the Sparta Jct-Warwick end of the L&HR, the Conrail track machines started working down in Andover. It's a shame that they did not leave that portion of the line intact, but I am sure that CR took joy in pulling up the rails in order to stop the NYSW from doing something.

Wasn't Sussex County also instrumental in keeping the line intact in Sussex? I seem to remember a local congressman from that area getting in the press for saving and obtaining gov't financing for improvements to the line north of Sparta.

South of Sparta I don't think there were any customers to sustain the line. Heck even Suburban Propane only got a few cars a week at the time. Chased the S-2 206 and the RS-1 252 with my father more than a few times north from Sparta to Warwick. They typically ran on a Saturday or Sunday complete with a protection car (empty box car between the propane car and engine) and caboose.

I think another issue today is generating traffic. At one time, Susquehanna had the Little Ferry property plus Resources Terminal as intermodal termination points. Little Ferry's for all intent gone. So the LHR/NYSW routing could only serve as an emergency route for NS. You might make the case that as NJ Transit's activity increases, the need becomes more real, but there's still plenty of room for most of the mileage on the old LV to double track, even if you weigh the expense of increasing the tunnel dimensions again at Pattenberg.

Resources has not handled any cars since they lost the Hanjin contract to NS at Croxton. I used to work there. The lumber and trash that are delivered/loaded are done off the property. They have been trying to get another steamship line in, but have failed to do so.

Besides the propane company, the NYSW used to deliver lumber loads to that team track under Route 15 during the early days. Also, the protection car/cars for the propane cars did not last long. They stopped using them after a short time. The run from Warwick to Sparta Jct. was typically on a Saturday or Sunday, only one day a week.

Thanks Dave, sounds like you concur. Never worked for the railroad, but owned DO stock for quite a while. Mr. Rich may have spoken those words twenty years ago, but that was in a world that was surrounded by Conrail. The environment NYSW plays in now is a different one... I'm wondering if they will survive this go-around. Actually, I never understood why they never pursued the terminal switching opportunities on the Northern Branch, Pascack Valley, etc... if they can't be a lower cost provider, I'm not sure they have a future.

cjvrr wrote:Wasn't Sussex County also instrumental in keeping the line intact in Sussex? I seem to remember a local congressman from that area getting in the press for saving and obtaining gov't financing for improvements to the line north of Sparta.



South of Sparta I don't think there were any customers to sustain the line. Heck even Suburban Propane only got a few cars a week at the time. Chased the S-2 206 and the RS-1 252 with my father more than a few times north from Sparta to Warwick. They typically ran on a Saturday or Sunday complete with a protection car (empty box car between the propane car and engine) and caboose.

Yes, the county did purchase the line and then leased it to the NYS&W. I believe the lease is up this year. I wil check.[/b]

njmidland wrote:John Treen told me that when Delaware Otsego took over in 1980 they held an employees meeting at Little Ferry. They were told that the NYS&W's west end would eventually be reopened and that they would get to Allentown. My assumption is they planned to buy the L&HR to Belvidere with trackage rights beyond.

Conrail beat 'em to it and tore out the tracks. If the NYS&W got this line I could just see another wye like connector build at Sparta, possiblly w/signals and a tower too. The community of Sparta would literally be up in arms over such an arrangement and level of rail activity, LMAO.

Sparta is up and arms about everything. Notice that we still don't have NJ Transit up here?

Unbelievable.

Ken

BlockLine_4111 wrote:

njmidland wrote:John Treen told me that when Delaware Otsego took over in 1980 they held an employees meeting at Little Ferry. They were told that the NYS&W's west end would eventually be reopened and that they would get to Allentown. My assumption is they planned to buy the L&HR to Belvidere with trackage rights beyond.

Conrail beat 'em to it and tore out the tracks. If the NYS&W got this line I could just see another wye like connector build at Sparta, possiblly w/signals and a tower too. The community of Sparta would literally be up in arms over such an arrangement and level of rail activity, LMAO.

NJ Vike wrote:Sparta is up and arms about everything. Notice that we still don't have NJ Transit up here?

Unbelievable.

Ken

That's not Sparta's fault. Running trains on the Susquehanna is WAY DOWN low on NJT's list

That wasn't the only issue. Sparta didn't want any rail yard in Sparta which didn't help.

Ken

EL nino wrote:

NJ Vike wrote:Sparta is up and arms about everything. Notice that we still don't have NJ Transit up here?

Unbelievable.

Ken

That's not Sparta's fault. Running trains on the Susquehanna is WAY DOWN low on NJT's list

RichM wrote:Thanks Dave, sounds like you concur. Never worked for the railroad, but owned DO stock for quite a while. Mr. Rich may have spoken those words twenty years ago, but that was in a world that was surrounded by Conrail. The environment NYSW plays in now is a different one... I'm wondering if they will survive this go-around. Actually, I never understood why they never pursued the terminal switching opportunities on the Northern Branch, Pascack Valley, etc... if they can't be a lower cost provider, I'm not sure they have a future.

Walter Rich had an interest in the NS and CSX division of Conrail. At various times, he offered to take over certain switching roles, and provide some of what Conrail Shared Assets now does. He was well connected in NJ and NY government, and provided some analysis in their various offers, I'm told.

I believe, and this is vague in my recollection, that NS and CSX helped finance his buyout of the DO public shareholders, including me.