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  • What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  • Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.
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What happens if Pan Am collapses?

Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.

Moderator: MEC407

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by roberttosh
 
I fully realize that you certainly aren't going to have a 100% graduation/retention rate when it comes train services classes, but that's not the point. I was commenting on Mick's statement that a new regional operator of the MEC wouldn't have enough people to run trains. I can think of several situations here in New England where new regional carriers took over operations (Irving just last week!) and I can't think of one instance where a railroad had to shut down due to a lack of trainmen. As I said before, if the MEC trackage was ever put for sale, there would be numerous, capable operators lined up to take over. Would trainmen take a pay hit - most definitely, but I still don't think they'd have a problem manning trains. In fact, considering how poorly PAR treats its employees and runs a railroad, you'd probably have more people looking to hire on with a new operator even at lower pay rates!

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by mick
 
Besides, the younger generation today don't want to work nights, they don't want to work weekends, many of them can't pass a drug screen and they would much rather be out drinking Jaeger Bombs at 3AM than hanging off the side of a boxcar, no matter how much you pay them.
Last edited by mick on Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by mick
 
mick wrote:
Besides, the younger generation today don't want to work nights, they don't want to work weekends, many of them can't pass a drug screen and they would much rather be out drinking Jaeger Bombs at 3AM than hanging off the side of a boxcar, no matter how much you pay them.
I'm not sure if that's intended to be a joke, but that comment is so ignorant it can't be taken seriously at all.
That's no joke, and if you think it's ignorant tell that to the GM of the MBCR, he said much the same thing. I'm glad to get you going over this, but you really need to read the Railway Labor Act before your comments can be taken seriously. ST doesen't operate in MBTA territory? Who goes to Everett, BS&G? Of course they do, they are the only freight crews that can (on former B&M lines). NS crews are going to East Boston? Umm, no they aren't. The nearest NS crews are in Binghamton New York, they won't be coming to Boston, even if they did, whatever ST men were affected by it would have to be protected, read the PAS agreement and your RLA. As far as passenger specialists or freight specialists, that's not what I'm talking about. All you need is an engineers certificate or be NORAC qualified to jump from freight to commuter, if they want to hire you, so who wouldn't go after that assuming they're working for a shortline making $15 an hour when the MBCR makes $30?

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by camster202
 
mick wrote:
Besides, the younger generation today don't want to work nights, they don't want to work weekends, many of them can't pass a drug screen and they would much rather be out drinking Jaeger Bombs at 3AM than hanging off the side of a boxcar, no matter how much you pay them.
Come on guys, I consider myself part of that "younger generation" and I do work nights, I do work weekends, I have to regularly pass a drug screen for my Commercial Drivers License, and seeing the number of college graduates who appear each May with a degree in hand and no jobs in their field, they would do just about anything with benefits and good pay. So while there are individuals who fit your mold, there are plenty who don't.

Now even without the experience of what it's like working on a railroad, I can sympathize with the joy of working nights. It's a really tough thing to do, especially if you're not used to it. Sometimes I feel like my sleep schedule will never revert to normal!

I didn't realize NS had their nearest crew base in Bingo. Hypothetically speaking if they did expand 100% out this way to Ayer, would it make more sense to centrally locate a crew base in East Deerfield or Mechanicville? Seems to me like ED would make the most sense as it allows access east, west and south.

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by CN9634
 
roberttosh wrote: In fact, considering how poorly PAR treats its employees and runs a railroad, you'd probably have more people looking to hire on with a new operator even at lower pay rates!
I'm not sure where you came up with this but PAR treats its employees very well. In fact some workers have switched to PAR from other local roads.

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by Otto Vondrak
 
BostonUrbEx wrote:Well, from the sounds of it, it just seems like someday not all that far off...
Why would the owners let a cash cow expire? The railroad makes money. Just because we don't like how it is operated doesn't mean anything.

I think this has turned into another "Let's Beat Up on Guilford" thread. Except we changed the name to Pan Am.

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by mick
 
camster202 wrote:
mick wrote:
Besides, the younger generation today don't want to work nights, they don't want to work weekends, many of them can't pass a drug screen and they would much rather be out drinking Jaeger Bombs at 3AM than hanging off the side of a boxcar, no matter how much you pay them.
Come on guys, I consider myself part of that "younger generation" and I do work nights, I do work weekends, I have to regularly pass a drug screen for my Commercial Drivers License, and seeing the number of college graduates who appear each May with a degree in hand and no jobs in their field, they would do just about anything with benefits and good pay. So while there are individuals who fit your mold, there are plenty who don't.

Now even without the experience of what it's like working on a railroad, I can sympathize with the joy of working nights. It's a really tough thing to do, especially if you're not used to it. Sometimes I feel like my sleep schedule will never revert to normal!

I didn't realize NS had their nearest crew base in Bingo. Hypothetically speaking if they did expand 100% out this way to Ayer, would it make more sense to centrally locate a crew base in East Deerfield or Mechanicville? Seems to me like ED would make the most sense as it allows access east, west and south.

Believe me, NS guys in Southern New York and Pennsylvania are not lining up to move up to Massachusetts, one of the most expensive states to live in in the country.
When the PAS deal was first announced, everyone thought that NS crews would be operating the trains on the ST, in fact some people think that NS crews operate trains on the ST now, like AYMO. There are no NS crews operating on the ST, they didn't come then and they're not coming now. I know there is a clause in the PAS agreement that says NS can operate intermodal and auto if they are not happy with the service ST provides etcetera etcetera. But what difference does it make if an NS crew is running a train or an ST crew? If the track is 10MPH, it's 10 the NS guys can't go any faster. I think that clause is there in case there is ever a situation where ST could not operate trains due to a dispute or something like that, something which is unlikely to happen in the forseeable future.

As far as my comment about the younger generation, of course it doesn't apply to everyone but read the articles and statistics, this is the "slacker" generation, kids living at home 'till they're 35 etc., marriage rates and births are down, etc., pot use is up, trying to legalize it etc., they just don't have the same work ethic as people did 30 years ago.

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by MEC407
 
And the people of 30 years ago didn't have the same work ethic as their parents who grew up in the Depression, and the folks who grew up in the Depression probably didn't have the same work ethic as the folks who grew up during the Civil War, etc...

Granted, I see things about kids and teenagers today that scare the crap out of me -- some of them can't even write legibly because they've been using computer keyboards since they were toddlers and never learned penmanship. But who knows, there may come a time in the future when we're all able to send our thoughts directly to our HP printers via brain-implanted Bluetooth and no one except the elderly folks will know how to write by hand. Scary thought, but it's not that far-fetched. Many schools aren't teaching cursive anymore... in 20 years they may not be teaching kids how to print.

Anyway, with that horrifying little daydream/nightmare off my chest, let's get back onto the topic of what would happen if Pan Am decided to exit the railroad business (I think that's the nicest way of saying it), and please leave the ad hominems and gratuitous PAR-bashing at the door.

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
mick wrote:
mick wrote:
Besides, the younger generation today don't want to work nights, they don't want to work weekends, many of them can't pass a drug screen and they would much rather be out drinking Jaeger Bombs at 3AM than hanging off the side of a boxcar, no matter how much you pay them.
I'm not sure if that's intended to be a joke, but that comment is so ignorant it can't be taken seriously at all.
That's no joke, and if you think it's ignorant tell that to the GM of the MBCR, he said much the same thing.
Quotes, please. Don't attribute provocative statements to public officials without offering the evidence.
mick wrote:ST doesen't operate in MBTA territory? Who goes to Everett, BS&G? Of course they do, they are the only freight crews that can (on former B&M lines).
That's EXACTLY what I said. Every PAR RR staffer is an ST employee. They got shuffled out of B&M for ST's union deal.
mick wrote:All you need is an engineers certificate or be NORAC qualified to jump from freight to commuter, if they want to hire you, so who wouldn't go after that assuming they're working for a shortline making $15 an hour when the MBCR makes $30?
You're spuriously assuming that there's enough RR jobs in the region and at the MBTA to employ every single qualified person at that wage. There isn't. The MBTA gets far more applicants than they can hire, and most stick around awhile because it's a good job. The freight operators have had no problems whatsoever filling their ranks and getting people who want to stick around awhile.

mick wrote:I'm glad to get you going over this, but you really need to read the Railway Labor Act before your comments can be taken seriously.
I don't know how tacitly admitting that was sort of a troll post intended to rile people up really supports your argument, but whatever. This is a pretty good discussion going in spite of that.

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by Trinnau
 
camster202 wrote:I didn't realize NS had their nearest crew base in Bingo. Hypothetically speaking if they did expand 100% out this way to Ayer, would it make more sense to centrally locate a crew base in East Deerfield or Mechanicville? Seems to me like ED would make the most sense as it allows access east, west and south.
Probably leave it the same as PAS currently has it - Mechanicville, Deerfield, Ayer. Generally railroads have crew bases where there is a high train origin (major yards or interchange points) or heavy local work (major yards or industrial areas).

Mechanicville is an interchange point (this base can cover Rotterdam too as it is pretty close)
Deerfield is a major yard and has heavy local work and several origin trains.
Ayer isn't a "major" yard but is big enough and has heavy local work along with a few origin trains. (this base can cover Fitchburg)

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by mick
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Quotes, please. Don't attribute provocative statements to public officials without offering the evidence.
mick wrote:ST doesen't operate in MBTA territory? Who goes to Everett, BS&G? Of course they do, they are the only freight crews that can (on former B&M lines).
That's EXACTLY what I said. Every PAR RR staffer is an ST employee. They got shuffled out of B&M for ST's union deal.
mick wrote:All you need is an engineers certificate or be NORAC qualified to jump from freight to commuter, if they want to hire you, so who wouldn't go after that assuming they're working for a shortline making $15 an hour when the MBCR makes $30?
You're spuriously assuming that there's enough RR jobs in the region and at the MBTA to employ every single qualified person at that wage. There isn't. The MBTA gets far more applicants than they can hire, and most stick around awhile because it's a good job. The freight operators have had no problems whatsoever filling their ranks and getting people who want to stick around awhile.

mick wrote:I'm glad to get you going over this, but you really need to read the Railway Labor Act before your comments can be taken seriously.
I don't know how tacitly admitting that was sort of a troll post intended to rile people up really supports your argument, but whatever. This is a pretty good discussion going in spite of that.
OK, you want a quote? "The kids today don't want to work nights, they don't want to work weekends, they want to be off when they want to be off"-JSM
You said the ST never operated on MBTA territory. The B&M and it's succesors have exclusive rights.
The freight railroads have no problem filling their ranks? OK, do you know if there is a crew shortage right now? How do you know? Is it conductors or engineers? Do you know how many engineers and conductors were trained by freight railroads, got their ticket and then went right to the MBCR or Amtrak? Quite a few. Of course they don't hire them all, I never said that. But they certainly give preference to someone who holds a valid engineers ticket or is NORAC qualified.

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by markhb
 
I have a question related to the original topic of the thread: who owns the Worcester Branch from Barbers to Worcester Union Station? I was under the impression that it was P&W, which makes me think that they would be more likely to buy the rest of the branch to Ayer than CSX. Why would CSX want to own 10 miles of disconnected track?

Something this thread made me wonder: if PAR came apart, and the former B&M and MEC wound up under separate ownership.... might it wind up making sense for the new MEC operator to rehab the Mountain Division to St. J., for exactly the reason it existed in the first place?

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by jaymac
 
markhb-
Unless either my memory has failed or some sort of double-super-secret deal has taken place, PW owns up to Barbers on the Worcester Main Line. For a period during the 80s, PW actually operated to Ayer, but due to lack of on-line customers, the economics weren't there, and despite some infrastructure investments, it let the line revert to Guilford. One of the factors in favor of routing northern New England traffic via Worcester is simplified waybills and costing since shipping via PAS to PAR adds another carrier. Adding PW to bills reduces that current advantage. The track work now being staged for the Worcester line will probably get speeds up to a uniform 25 mph, making for an even more -- if only slightly -- attractive CSX-PAR routing. Also, 10 miles? it may be 10 mph in many places, but Barbers to Ayer is approximately 25 miles.
The Mountain Division was built to provide lading and money for Portland well before the St. Lawrence Seaway. The Seaway diverted a major traffic source. Changing ownership made alternate routing much more economically attractive. Given the operational challenges and the limited traffic potential of the Mountain Division, MeDOT aside, there probably won't be many interested takers. How much of the Mountain Division is 286-capable, and how many of its neighboring would-be connections are 286-capable?

Re: What happens if Pan Am collapses?

  by QB 52.32
 
markhb wrote:I have a question related to the original topic of the thread: who owns the Worcester Branch from Barbers to Worcester Union Station? I was under the impression that it was P&W, which makes me think that they would be more likely to buy the rest of the branch to Ayer than CSX. Why would CSX want to own 10 miles of disconnected track?

Something this thread made me wonder: if PAR came apart, and the former B&M and MEC wound up under separate ownership.... might it wind up making sense for the new MEC operator to rehab the Mountain Division to St. J., for exactly the reason it existed in the first place?
CSX owns trackage rights over the P&W from Barbers to its Boston Line purchased by Conrail when this section was sold to the P&W, so they have access to the branch. Their purchase of Worcesster-Ayer/beyond would be similar to any moves NS might make in this case in that they, too, do not have direct ownership but instread rely upon agreement and/or rights via CP to connect New England to their system.

I think the practicality of a renewed MEC beefing up their connection to CP via MMA by agreement or purchase or protecting their interest in a balanced connection to both CSX and NS would trump interest in a renewed Mt Division.
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