Wayne Junction to Glenside track/signal project

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

jfrey40535 wrote:And when was the last time a SEPTA train rearended another SEPTA train while out on the mainline or on some branch line somewhere because a engineer blew a signal??

North Wales?

An isolated incident that involved major rules violations and pure stupidity. There were two or three minor rear end collisions in Center City also, and there are cab signals in effect there. Even with cab signals, speed control, and ATC, there is still the issue of human error.

whovian wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

jfrey40535 wrote:And when was the last time a SEPTA train rearended another SEPTA train while out on the mainline or on some branch line somewhere because a engineer blew a signal??

North Wales?

An isolated incident that involved major rules violations and pure stupidity. There were two or three minor rear end collisions in Center City also, and there are cab signals in effect there. Even with cab signals, speed control, and ATC, there is still the issue of human error.

But I think the original point still stands - under a wayside only system, this kind of thing *can* happen, and did happen. It's many orders of magnitude less likely to happen under a cab signal system with speed control and ATC. Which was, I believe, Mr. Kwok's original point.

And I'll reiterate what I said previously. We've had a few minor collisions in cab signal equipped territory. It simply comes down to crews adhering to the rules and paying strict attention to what they are doing. That is part of the reason locomotive engineers are certified and qualified to operate their equipment. The incident at North Wales was an isolated incident that occurred years ago. It was not the first, and it certainly won't be the last. This kind of thing 'can' happen under any circumstance.

Oh yeah North Wales was probably the last major rear ender but that was before Norac and that was before crews from both sides of the system was truly qualified on the entire system. I think he story went that it was a Pennsy crew running on the Reading side and mistaken a train order signal for a block signel or something like that. Am I right or wrong with that version of the story?

whovian wrote:And I'll reiterate what I said previously. We've had a few minor collisions in cab signal equipped territory. It simply comes down to crews adhering to the rules and paying strict attention to what they are doing. That is part of the reason locomotive engineers are certified and qualified to operate their equipment. The incident at North Wales was an isolated incident that occurred years ago. It was not the first, and it certainly won't be the last. This kind of thing 'can' happen under any circumstance.

Will you at least concede that while it 'can' happen under "any circumstance" (which I don't concede, but we'll let it lie) that it's less likely to happen under cab with speed control and ATC, which is, again...the original point?

I not only concede it, I affirm it. Collisions can happen, have happened, in both cab signal and non-cab signal territory. It comes down to the engineman. You may not concede it, but what I state are facts, we've had collisions at 30th street station and Suburban Station within the last 3 years (albeit minor ones), and that territory is equipped with cab signals. North Wales was an isolated incident that happened many years ago. Look at how the Restricted Speed rule (NORAC rule 80) is written. Under the Restricted Speed rule, the person(s) on the leading end of the movement are implicitly 100% responsible for the safe movement of the train. I don't know what your background is (JB9152), I'll have to assume that you are not an engineer if you cannot concede that accidents, in fact, do happen in territory that is equipped with cab signals. As a locomotive engineer I can concede that simple human error is virtually unacceptable in our craft; yet, we are considered to be underworked and overpayed by folks who do not fathom the awesome responsibility of locomotive operation. Locomotive engineers are under the strictest scrutiny out of all of the other crafts on the railroad, and we are disciplined much more severely for rules noncompliance than any other craft. You may think that speed control is failsafe; but, let me assure you that while speed control is undeniably an effective safety feature which I wish were active in all RRD territories, the reality is that all it takes is an engineer not paying attention for just a split second for things to get nasty. Ponder on that.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:Oh yeah North Wales was probably the last major rear ender but that was before Norac and that was before crews from both sides of the system was truly qualified on the entire system. I think he story went that it was a Pennsy crew running on the Reading side and mistaken a train order signal for a block signel or something like that. Am I right or wrong with that version of the story?

North Wales happened prior to the tunnel opening. 1981 or 82, I believe.

whovian wrote:I not only concede it, I affirm it. Collisions can happen, have happened, in both cab signal and non-cab signal territory. It comes down to the engineman. You may not concede it, but what I state are facts, we've had collisions at 30th street station and Suburban Station within the last 3 years (albeit minor ones), and that territory is equipped with cab signals. North Wales was an isolated incident that happened many years ago. Look at how the Restricted Speed rule (NORAC rule 80) is written. Under the Restricted Speed rule, the person(s) on the leading end of the movement are implicitly 100% responsible for the safe movement of the train. I don't know what your background is (JB9152), I'll have to assume that you are not an engineer if you cannot concede that accidents, in fact, do happen in territory that is equipped with cab signals. As a locomotive engineer I can concede that simple human error is virtually unacceptable in our craft; yet, we are considered to be underworked and overpayed by folks who do not fathom the awesome responsibility of locomotive operation. Locomotive engineers are under the strictest scrutiny out of all of the other crafts on the railroad, and we are disciplined much more severely for rules noncompliance than any other craft. You may think that speed control is failsafe; but, let me assure you that while speed control is undeniably an effective safety feature which I wish were active in all RRD territories, the reality is that all it takes is an engineer not paying attention for just a split second for things to get nasty. Ponder on that.

Blah, blah, blah..."you're not an engineer, so you couldn't possibly understand the complexities in involved here."

Look, I'm not denigrating your profession, but it's getting a little old to hear the engineers here keep repeating that veiled insult, "well I'm guessing you're not an engineer because if you were you'd agree with me all the time". That's not the way it works. I have over 20 years' experience on the railroad in an operations capacity, and that's all I'm going to say - I'm not going to lord it over people or make veiled insults that they're wrong simply because they don't sit in the cab of a Silverliner.

Accidents happen due to human error. Cab signal systems with ATC make them less likely. Plain and simple. And I think you said that somewhere, right?

Aaaa, crap. I just read over my last post, and I really come off harsh, and I don't mean to.

Look, the original point was made that cab signals in general make things safer by making certain situations that *are* possible with wayside only much less possible through technology.

You can't deny that ("you" not meaning whovian - "you" meaning 'youse' in Philly-ese).

Whovian, I apologize for the outburst. But you guys who are SEPTA engineers that post in this forum in particular really need to tone down the "I'm an engineer, and you're not so therefore I'm right" stuff. It stifles good conversation. And you know what? Judging by posts from several people here who are not engineers, and in fact not even in the industry, it certainly doesn't take an actual *employee* to have good insights and knowledge. I could name a few people right off the bat that really seem to know what they're talking about, and they don't even work in the rail industry.

All I'm saying is that the "I'm a <fill in the blank> therefore you can't possibly have a contrary opinion to mine" argument is no argument at all, and in fact takes away from the generally enjoyable conversation that we enjoy here.

Anyhow, be safe.

jb9152 wrote:Aaaa, crap. I just read over my last post, and I really come off harsh, and I don't mean to.

Look, the original point was made that cab signals in general make things safer by making certain situations that *are* possible with wayside only much less possible through technology.

You can't deny that ("you" not meaning whovian - "you" meaning 'youse' in Philly-ese).

Whovian, I apologize for the outburst. But you guys who are SEPTA engineers that post in this forum in particular really need to tone down the "I'm an engineer, and you're not so therefore I'm right" stuff. It stifles good conversation. And you know what? Judging by posts from several people here who are not engineers, and in fact not even in the industry, it certainly doesn't take an actual *employee* to have good insights and knowledge. I could name a few people right off the bat that really seem to know what they're talking about, and they don't even work in the rail industry.

All I'm saying is that the "I'm a <fill in the blank> therefore you can't possibly have a contrary opinion to mine" argument is no argument at all, and in fact takes away from the generally enjoyable conversation that we enjoy here.

Anyhow, be safe.

Don't worry about it, I have rather thick skin . I've had my share of outbursts on this forum, giving and receiving, so I can give as good as I can get. I don't use my profession to 'lord' over anyone elses opinion. All I have is my individual experiences on the railroad to base some of my opinions and inferences from. I was only trying to emphasize a point in my above posts, and other engineers may, or may not, agree with what I say. I can't quite say that my opinion is the only valid one, or else that would void the very essence of this chat forum we all willingly participate in. I joined this forum because I felt that I could contribute a SEPTA employee's perspective on some of the topics covered here. So when I make statements like 'I am an engineer and you are not' I am not seeking to disparage any one elses opinions on this forum. I make such statements to show a 'head-end' perspective', if you will. I value every ones opinion on this forum, although I don't necessarily agree with every one. Most of you guys (and gals) are more informed than I am when it comes to railroad stuff. I am certainly not a rail buff, just an opinionated person with a passion for debate.

Hey JB I certainly hope that your post wasnt directed to me since you are stating Septa engineers. I started a thread about The cabs signals going in on the main line and not once did I ever say you meaning anyone on here wouldnt understand because youse people( ) arent engineers and the only time you have heard me get upset was when another fellow foamer made a comment that Septa engineers arent engineers because we run mostly silverliners and I reitereated the fact that we are engineers whether people like it or not at least thats what my certificate says I know alot of railfans dont like when railroaders get technical because we do act like we know it all at times but I definately have to say that both me and whovian ( whoever you are whovian and Im still trying to figure this one out ) have always tried to post things for everyone to understand. Well Im just rambling and had a long day at work running Silverliners. Agggh what a life. Hehe Take Care

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:Hey JB I certainly hope that your post wasnt directed to me since you are stating Septa engineers. I started a thread about The cabs signals going in on the main line and not once did I ever say you meaning anyone on here wouldnt understand because youse people( ) arent engineers and the only time you have heard me get upset was when another fellow foamer made a comment that Septa engineers arent engineers because we run mostly silverliners and I reitereated the fact that we are engineers whether people like it or not at least thats what my certificate says I know alot of railfans dont like when railroaders get technical because we do act like we know it all at times but I definately have to say that both me and whovian ( whoever you are whovian and Im still trying to figure this one out ) have always tried to post things for everyone to understand. Well Im just rambling and had a long day at work running Silverliners. Agggh what a life. Hehe Take Care

I would NEVER say SEPTA engineers aren't engineers. That' ignorant. But PATH "engineers"....that's another story...

I personally welcome the inside view presented by the operating members of these forums. I hope some of the babble here doesn't chase them and the insight that they provide from "between the rails" away from here and the other boards. I have stood corrected a couple times based our their input. Thanks for your contributions guys.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic.

I would NEVER say SEPTA engineers aren't engineers.

Agreed, but the problem here is that SEPTA has acquired a reputation, fairly or not, of not being a 'real railroad.'

While I'm sure some of it is lingering (still!) resentment from the 1983 strike and its aftermath (in which many of the personnel with seniority left SEPTA for other railroads), SEPTA management and the SEPTA culture has a lot to do with it too. SEPTA is the only railroad in the nation that's operated by a bus company, and some of the things their management does are different from other railroads.

Worse yet in this respect is the culture where SEPTA doesn't want to operate the railroad as a real railroad, and looks for every opportunity not to. Take for example Schuylkill Valley, where SEPTA was giving serious (millions of dollars of study serious) thought to running a 62-mile trolley line. You have to be really dead set against railroading to pursue a folly like that.

So (with some exceptions*) the current operating personnel are the victim of circumstances rather than doing anything to deserve that reputation.

*--then again some of the stuff I've seen SEPTA personnel do--like the engineer who decided to open the vestibule door and take a leak onto the tracks while his train was stopped to board passengers--makes me have second thoughts about that statement.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

*--then again some of the stuff I've seen SEPTA personnel do--like the engineer who decided to open the vestibule door and take a leak onto the tracks while his train was stopped to board passengers--makes me have second thoughts about that statement.

WOW! Good thing Fox29 wasn't around for THAT one!