Bar cars: end of an era?

[Otto Vondrak]

The 10 MTA owned Bar Cars were numbered 8601-8619. They were renumbered to match the "A" cars (8452-8470) they were paired with. Example bar car 8601 was paired with 8452, which was renumbered 8453.

8603-8455

8605-8457

8607-8459

8609-8461

8611-8463

8613-8465

8615-8467

8617-8469

8619-8471

Digging back in the thread, I never knew there were bar cars on the Hudson and Harlem Lines! So it sounds like only the LIRR cars got blocked from production.

-otto-

[Otto Vondrak]

New York Times, Jan. 22, 1974:

The first of 20 new bar cars for the New Haven division of the Penn Central was unveiled yesterday on a brief well-stocked run to New Rochelle. One or two of the cars, called cafe cars by the railroad, are expected to be in service by Feb. 1, and the rest by next spring.

It sounds like the initial order was for 20 cars, did the order get cut back to 10?

-otto-

[DutchRailnut]

10 MTA, 10 CDOT ?

[Tommy Meehan]

Otto you have the information but you're not seeing it.

There were twenty M2 bar cars ordered in 1974 for the New Haven Line of what was then the Penn Central. Half were paid for by New York and half paid for by Connecticut. The New York-owned cars were numbered -- as you found -- 8601-8619, odd numbers only. Those are M2 numbers, right? They were M2 cars and didn't operate on the Harlem/Hudson Lines. The Connecticut-owned bar cars were numbered 8650-8669, odd numbers only.

What I'd like to know is, the New York cars were paired with conventional M2s renumbered 8453-8471. Does anyone know the numbers of the conventional M2s that the bar cars 8650-8669 were paired with?

The other question I have is, back in 1983 the newly organized Metro-North was woefully short of seats during rush hour. They proposed converting the bar cars to conventional cars, gaining roughly about 70 seats per car. That would've been a lot, about 1,400 additional seats. The problem was, while New York riders on the New Haven Line (who had a much shorter trip than the Connecticut riders) were complaining about having to stand while space was "wasted" for bar cars, riders from Connecticut were totally against phasing out the bar cars. I have read some of the old threads too and in one of them Tom Curtin related that he was personally involved in the protests. The Connecticut riders protested all the way to the Governor's office -- I think back then it was William O'Neill -- and he overruled ConnDOT and ordered the Connecticut-owned bar cars be kept rolling....for another thirty years as it turned out!

My question is, was that when the New York bar cars were converted? In 1983-84?

[Gilbert B Norman]

Certainly within the scope of this topic is a 'shout out' for the most famous Bar Car to operate on the New Haven:

THE V:XI GBC

I was a 'regular' Summer 1965 riding NH 376 non-stop 125th to Riverside; not saying that Don Draper and Pete Campbell welcomed me with open arms, as my job only required casual attire, but I was always served.

I'll always remember the scripture which adorned the bar: Isaiah 5:11:

• Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

[Clean Cab]

Otto you have the information but you're not seeing it.

There were twenty M2 bar cars ordered in 1974 for the New Haven Line of what was then the Penn Central. Half were paid for by New York and half paid for by Connecticut. The New York-owned cars were numbered -- as you found -- 8601-8619, odd numbers only. Those are M2 numbers, right? They were M2 cars and didn't operate on the Harlem/Hudson Lines. The Connecticut-owned bar cars were numbered 8650-8669, odd numbers only.

What I'd like to know is, the New York cars were paired with conventional M2s renumbered 8453-8471. Does anyone know the numbers of the conventional M2s that the bar cars 8650-8669 were paired with?

The other question I have is, back in 1983 the newly organized Metro-North was woefully short of seats during rush hour. They proposed converting the bar cars to conventional cars, gaining roughly about 70 seats per car. That would've been a lot, about 1,400 additional seats. The problem was, while New York riders on the New Haven Line (who had a much shorter trip than the Connecticut riders) were complaining about having to stand while space was "wasted" for bar cars, riders from Connecticut were totally against phasing out the bar cars. I have read some of the old threads too and in one of them Tom Curtin related that he was personally involved in the protests. The Connecticut riders protested all the way to the Governor's office -- I think back then it was William O'Neill -- and he overruled ConnDOT and ordered the Connecticut-owned bar cars be kept rolling....for another thirty years as it turned out!

My question is, was that when the New York bar cars were converted? In 1983-84?

In 1983, Metro North signed a contract with Morrison/Kundeson in Hornell NY to rebuild all 244 M2's. The first project they took on was rebuilding the 10 MTA owned bar cars back into coaches. Those cars were all converted between 1984 and 1986.

[Tommy Meehan]

Morrison/Knudsen rebuilt them at Hornell, thanks. Were they renumbered?

Btw Otto asked if the NY M2 bar cars ran on the Harlem/Hudson Lines; I'm certain they didn't.

Btw there's some interesting history here as well. Back in 1974 when the M2 bar cars were ordered the MTA was asked if bar car service would be instituted on the H&H as well. They said no it would not be. When the media asked why, at first MTA said it was because of the M1 design. That the bar cars were heavier and the M1 trucks could not support the additional weight. The media asked, what about the aborted plan to build LIRR M1 bar cars? Were the M1As the H&H used different? Then MTA backed off on the earlier statement -- that it was the trucks -- and said it was actually the track. That the track on the Harlem and Hudson Lines could not handle the heavier axle loads. That seems obviously inaccurate too but it seemed to satisfy the media.

I would speculate the real reason was that it was Connecticut that pushed the bar car design.

[RearOfSignal]

I've seen bar cars run on the Hudson for private MNR events. The bar car was in the head and was closed off to the public.

[Otto Vondrak]

Morrison/Knudsen rebuilt them at Hornell, thanks. Were they renumbered?

Btw Otto asked if the NY M2 bar cars ran on the Harlem/Hudson Lines; I'm certain they didn't.

Btw there's some interesting history here as well. Back in 1974 when the M2 bar cars were ordered the MTA was asked if bar car service would be instituted on the H&H as well. They said no it would not be. When the media asked why, at first MTA said it was because of the M1 design. That the bar cars were heavier and the M1 trucks could not support the additional weight. The media asked, what about the aborted plan to build LIRR M1 bar cars? Were the M1As the H&H used different? Then MTA backed off on the earlier statement -- that it was the trucks -- and said it was actually the track. That the track on the Harlem and Hudson Lines could not handle the heavier axle loads. That seems obviously inaccurate too but it seemed to satisfy the media.

I would speculate the real reason was that it was Connecticut that pushed the bar car design.

Okay, I think I understand now. The fleet of 20 cars was half paid for by MTA and half by CDOT, but all were M-2's, and none ran on the H&H as a regular schedule (I do recall one Hudson Line trip I made in 2002 on an M-2 bar car set, but that had to be some special move or equipment transfer). So we have clearly established that there never were any M-1 bar cars planned for the H&H, and the New York Times has documented the cancellation of M-1 bar cars on LIRR, so that seems to be the end of the story.

-otto-

[Tommy Meehan]

I used to reverse commute from Manhattan to White Plains back in the mid-to-late 1980s. Most days I didn't have to be to work until about 11 AM. At that time there was an M2 train that was making a regular mid-morning turn to NWP and I rode it northbound several times. I had asked the train crew why they were using M2s and they said it was because this set would've been laying over in GCT so they started using it to make an NWP trip. I think it was an equipment utilization issue. It wasn't always the same train set and I remember a couple times one of the cars on the train was a bar car. I think I rode in it twice. It wasn't open and serving but it was just the idea I was riding an NH Line bar car on a Harlem train. As I remember it didn't last that long. Maybe a few months one summer in....maybe 1987?

[Clean Cab]

There were only M2 bar cars (aside from a few modified Bomb cars). There were none scheduled to run on Harlem/Hudson trains. It was only a service paid for by the state of Connecticut. A bit of trivia. While the bar cars were at MK getting rebuilt, two CDOT owned M2 pairs were modified as fill in bar cars, pairs 8548/8549 & 8550/8551. They had several rows of seats removed and had a small bar counter installed.

[Otto Vondrak]

I've seen bar cars run on the Hudson for private MNR events. The bar car was in the head and was closed off to the public.

The MN1-MN2-MN3 inspection train doesn't count as "regular service."

-otto-

[Otto Vondrak]

So we started with 20 M-2 bar cars and by 2014 only 9 were in service. Can someone help me understand and explain how the numbers dwindled over the years? I know we lost a set to some wreck damage, other incidents that forced early retirement of these cars? Thanks for helping this feeble mind understand

-otto-

[DutchRailnut]

as explained to feeble minded 10 MTA bar cars were converted to regular coach, leaving 10 in 1984 or so.
so in 30 years only one bar car was lost as explained by you and wreckage, now are you by anyway related to Thomas on Amtrak board ?

[Tommy Meehan]

I believe 8655 was the bar car that was removed from service. Was it wrecked or just too worn out? These cars went into service in the first half of 1974, that's a long time.