• The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

  • Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

Moderator: Liquidcamphor

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  by Pensyfan19
 
photobug56 wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 12:24 pm Why would they have not retained the option for running DM's and C3's through there? That meant that from day 1 they knew they were screwing diesel country passengers. Of course, from what I've observed, there were at least some LIRR officials (one of them eventually becoming LIRR pres) who still believed that it was all farm country still past Huntington and Babylon. A big part of why they never electrified certain lines, let alone double tracked them.
Probably because Easy Side Acces was first proposed in the 1960s way before the DM30ACs or even (LIRR) GP38s were thought of. Why not redo the tunnel and make it a bit higher so that C3s could fit? Same thing with the new dual-mode replacement locomotives when they come around.
  by railfaned
 
The tunnels were precast out of state, even before the M1's arrived, and were sunk into the east river. they were basically subway tunnels that the lirr given the lower level. The original plan was for the LIRR to use the existing platforms in Grand Central Sta. but the grade up from the tunnel was too steep. Also there would not have been enough headroom there for the C3's.
  by photobug56
 
Lirr told me that the c3's they designed were 3 inches too tall for the tunnel that was there long before the c3's were designed.
  by Backshophoss
 
The 63rd street tunnel set the height,that CANNOT be changed,the project is way too far along for a redesign now.
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
I think that the majority of the trains that serve Grand Central Terminal would probably be originating from stations within electrified territory. I think during off peak hours and weekends, whatever trains that used to end at Atlantic Terminal from Long Island will be shifted to Grand Central Terminal. I know that the majority of the trains that run down the Far Rockaway end at Atlantic Terminal. I think several trains heading to and from the Hempstead Branch end at Atlantic Terminal. C3 bilevels are very rarely used on the Hempstead and Far Rockaway Lines. Those two lines use MUs 99 percent of the time at the very least.
  by photobug56
 
You miss the point. Lirr deliberately built c3 cars that could not fit in the tunnel. 3 inches.
  by Backshophoss
 
The C-3's were never designed for ESA,only the M series MU cars
The 63rd street tunnel was part of Subway project ages ago with the LIRR level a "what if" future proofing idea.
  by Head-end View
 
Much earlier in this thread someone explained that when the tunnels were designed in the 1960's, the M-1 was considered the big wave of future. And at that time they just didn't envision running anything except those shiny new M-1's thru them. And that's how we got to where we are now.
  by photobug56
 
That may explain how the tunnel under the East River was designed. The M1 presumably was about the same size as the later M cars. But the tunnel was a lot taller than an M1 needed. And LIRR made the CHOICE to make the C3's about 3 inches (their description back on tour in 1996) too tall to fit, and that's what I have a problem with. Specifically, that LIRR has historically, even when no longer even close to being true, treated commuters in Oyster Bay, PJ line, south shore past Huntington and Babylon as 2nd class riders. On the PJ line, being one track creates horrible gaps in service. And only 2 direct trains per day to Penn - the one arriving 7:20 - usually jammed full, and the one arriving AFTER rush hour, and even worse, only 2 east bound that leave at 4:19 (the construction workers special, usually at least half empty), and the 4:49 - ALSO pre rush hour. Most commuters get to Penn after 5, many up till about 6, and their commute is bloody slow and awful and requires a transfer at Jamaica Hell Hole Station, or slower yet, at Hicksville. My station is about 40 miles from Penn (Newsday's measurement, not mine). The fastest train is inbound, taking over 60 minutes. One of the worst, outbound, typically takes over 90 minutes. That's beyond disgusting.

So when they made their mid 1990's decision to exclude the planned diesel fleet from GCT, they made sure that the 2nd class status of diesel country passengers would continue for a very long time. And I'll bet that when they finally get some new diesel hauled cars, they won't fit either. Yet we have the same need for a decent, fast, reliable commute that electric line passengers have.
  by Jeff Smith
 
photobug56 wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 12:24 pm Why would they have not retained the option for running DM's and C3's through there? That meant that from day 1 they knew they were screwing diesel country passengers. Of course, from what I've observed, there were at least some LIRR officials (one of them eventually becoming LIRR pres) who still believed that it was all farm country still past Huntington and Babylon. A big part of why they never electrified certain lines, let alone double tracked them.
I think probably more important, although I certainly appreciate the point about lack of DM access, is the lack of a Sunnyside station. Port Washington customers are out of luck, not even a transfer.

And yeah, eastern LI has always been a red-headed stepchild. It's why half of it wants to secede from Suffolk. The frequencies out that way suck, and much of the lines should have been electrified long ago. Hopefully, with the second track project completed, and the third well under way, the frequency issues should be ameliorated.
  by Jeff Smith
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 3:14 pm
Probably because Easy Side Acces was first proposed in the 1960s way before the DM30ACs or even (LIRR) GP38s were thought of. Why not redo the tunnel and make it a bit higher so that C3s could fit? Same thing with the new dual-mode replacement locomotives when they come around.
Because: $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$ times infinity.
  by Jeff Smith
 
railfaned wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 3:37 pm The tunnels were precast out of state, even before the M1's arrived, and were sunk into the east river. they were basically subway tunnels that the lirr given the lower level. The original plan was for the LIRR to use the existing platforms in Grand Central Sta. but the grade up from the tunnel was too steep. Also there would not have been enough headroom there for the C3's.
Before the GCT existing platforms idea, there was a proposed station around 63rd and 1st or 2nd. GCT platforms got scrubbed later because 1. MNRR (or the predecessor) basically said it wasn't workable, and: 2. The grade coming out with the turns was unworkable, so instead they gave up the Madison Yards for a concourse, with tracks still pretty deep down below.

Can you imagine how deep the station would be for the first idea?
  by photobug56
 
There were alternate plans offered that claimed that this could be done for a lot less money on the GCT end. I don't know enough to judge that, but what we are getting has always felt like the Taj Mahal version. And I recall the earliest plans for a station at / under 63rd St. And I get the idea that the grade might have been too steep for the C3's going into the existing levels. But with the decision to go under the existing GCT, I still don't get why 1. the C3's could not have been designed to fit into the East River tunnels, and the rest of it built to fit them along with the DM's. And everything I see and hear and remember says that LIRR just despises diesel country.

You may not remember Dermody, the retired on the job LIRR pres for a while. He told me, face to face just before a hearing on his planned east of Huntington electric only train yard (served by single track from just west of Greenlawn to Commack or Smithtown) that as he understood it, it was still ALL farm land east of Huntington, and that's why 2 tracks and electrification made no sense. It's also why he figured that he could build the yard wherever he wanted, that about all he'd be disturbing would be farm crops or cows. He couldn't understand the opposition to a train yard next door to lots of houses, nor why there were so many protests about his plan. With his plan, he'd ruin some neighborhoods, provide zero train improvement to those of us east of Huntington, probably create piles of problems because all those extra trains going farther east but on only a single track railroad. And one of his plans called for filling in a huge valley - that would have never gotten past the environmental review.

I've only met a few LIRR presidents. James Dermody, Helena Williams, Philip Eng. Maybe Tom Prendergast also. Whether I agreed with them or liked them, they all seemed to know what they were doing, but Dermody scared me with how little he could comprehend about LIRR, despite having worked for them for so long. He seemed to know less than a beginning ticket clerk (his first position, as I recall).
  by Backshophoss
 
The C-3's and the future C-5's fit in NY Penn,Why are you obsessing on them going to GCT's Basement level?
You can make the transfer at Jamaica to a GCT train! Flatbush ave and GCT will always require a change of trains
Hunterspoint and LIC will always deal with the diesel services, there's ZERO room for a station in the middle of Harold interlocking.
What was designed back then never expected the growth of the Island that happened. LET IT GO!
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