• All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

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  by Suburban Station
 
gp80mac wrote: And what sense does it make to put the station on the edge of town at AP Green? Without seeing any kind of studies, I'd guess the majority of people using amtrak out of Middletown are driving to the station. So what does it matter if they get on their car in Middletown or just outside of Middletown? Except the fact that the airport stop would be closer to the I-283 connector. AP Green isn't in walking distance of a majority of Middletown residents as it is on the edge of town. It is still not within a reasonable walking distance (a couple of blocks) to downtown. Not like there's anything in "downtown" Middletown to brag about.
actually, middletown residents do walk to their station. and your plan to further screw downtown will only solidify "the nothing to brag about." since the AP Green site is on the area's major road, it's just as accessible as the so called airport site.
gp80mac wrote:
A HIA station would hopefully be closer to the actual terminal. The AP green site is just closer to the edge of their long term parking (but still a good distance away from the actual terminal). But if you are in a car, the difference between driving to AP Green and the airport is about 2 minutes, tops. CAT actually had a park and ride out of one of the lots near the airport.
most people aren't going to take the train to the airport. the whole point of using middletown's airport is that parking is cheap and there's no traffic hassle. who is going to take a 7 times a day train to the airport for a connecting flight? not many. there's no reason the same shuttle bus that picks people up from economy parking can't also stop at the AP green station next door. more important is using the long term economy parking to serve both the train (trips to Philadelphia and NY) than serving the airport itself. more to the point, the peopel of MDT overwhelmingly rejected the airport site.
gp80mac wrote:
Of course the people in Middletown prefer their current station - the parking is FREE (both in the lot and on surrounding streets). They know any change in the location will mean they will have to pay to park their cars.
oh yeah, and it's also in middletown.
gp80mac wrote:
And of course the cost of an AP Green station will involve rebuilding and moving the M&H RR interchange AGAIN. More tax money flushed down the toilet. To think that moving the station at AP Green is suddenly going to revitalize downtown middletown is foolish. It's a train station.
and of course, crossing NS will have to be addressed so the taxpayer money argument is a red herring. I don't see any basis for your last point. trains have an economic impact like anything else. the faster the train and the larger the destinations, the more impact it will have. a developer has already stepped forward with plans for a TOD. throw in further upgrades and faster trains to Harrisburg, and it has a larger impact. you are essentially advocating the anti-urban policies that have dominated for the past 80 years
  by gp80mac
 
Suburban Station wrote:
actually, middletown residents do walk to their station. and your plan to further screw downtown will only solidify "the nothing to brag about." since the AP Green site is on the area's major road, it's just as accessible as the so called airport site.
How many? There is no downtown left to screw. You think people getting off the train are going to walk to Karn's Markets? (about the only business there). If they live in downtown Middletown, they probably already patronize those few businesses. If they don't they are hopping into their cars and driving home. Plenty of places to stop along the highways and biways on their way home. The airport site is closer to the I283 Connector. AP is on 230/truck route 441 just down the street. They are not that far apart, but still not close enough to walk to from downtown Middletown. But both can easily be served by already-existant CAT bus routes.


Suburban Station wrote: most people aren't going to take the train to the airport. the whole point of using middletown's airport is that parking is cheap and there's no traffic hassle. who is going to take a 7 times a day train to the airport for a connecting flight? not many. there's no reason the same shuttle bus that picks people up from economy parking can't also stop at the AP green station next door. more important is using the long term economy parking to serve both the train (trips to Philadelphia and NY) than serving the airport itself. more to the point, the peopel of MDT overwhelmingly rejected the airport site.
The people of Middletown did not reject the airport site, the airport authority and Amtrak got into a pissing match about who was going to pay for the station. People use Etown and Middletown for one reason - free parking. It's cheaper than paying to park in Harribsurg, unless you are the lucky few that gets a permit. All of the arguments locally I've seen about Middletown has been focused on one issue: parking. And so you are saying that people that want to use HIA are less important than a few Middletown residents without cars? It just seems silly to have an all-but commuter RR passing in sight distance of an international airport. Sure HIA isn't as busy as it should be. But in 10 years? Who knows. Transit should be convenient to each other.
Suburban Station wrote:oh yeah, and it's also in middletown.
So is AP Green, and so is HIA. but besides from the people from the retirement community, who is walking to the Middletown station? And they surely won't be walking the whole way out to AP Green. The ideal spot for a "downtown" supporting station is the current spot. But with ADA, and the banked curve, the station will not last forever.

Suburban Station wrote: and of course, crossing NS will have to be addressed so the taxpayer money argument is a red herring. I don't see any basis for your last point. trains have an economic impact like anything else. the faster the train and the larger the destinations, the more impact it will have. a developer has already stepped forward with plans for a TOD. throw in further upgrades and faster trains to Harrisburg, and it has a larger impact. you are essentially advocating the anti-urban policies that have dominated for the past 80 years
NS isn't going to pay to move their tracks. We will. But moving their track out isn't as abd as moving the entire M&H interchange. Where is that going to go? And don't look for any future upgrades to the Keystones for a long time. The state is broke. They did upgrade the tracks to 100mph running at spots, which is about as good as you will ever get. Even if you can raise the speed limits more, is the extra xxxx million dollars worth it to shave a few minutes off the commute of a few people? The Corridor 1-2-3 projects seem to be as dead as a doornail as well.

You know, I tried to read this planning book a year ago. The authors just said that everything should be like Georgetown. My question: what if I don't want to live in Georgetown? That is the problem with MANY planners. They think people want to live in hip, urban trendy environments. I think they'd be surprised how many people DON'T. Besides, if people want to live in a town, there's no lack of them around here. Middletown. Hummelstown. Steelton. Highspire. Elizabethtown. Take your pick. I did study some planning in school, but i could never fall into that "utopia" category. I am too much of a realist.

You paint a pretty picture, but these areas are plagued with flowover crime and blight from Harrisburg. If people want to live within easy commuting distance from Harrisburg, they go to the west (white) shore. And try to talk those people into starting a commuter rail line from HBG into their towns. Hah. They don't even want the Walnut St. Bridge rebuilt.

PS. The trains are already in downtown Middletown. We've had better service for a couple years on the Keystones. Now tell me, how come Middletown's downtown hasn't become *THE* place to be? Could it be that rail transit isn't the catalyist that many tell us it is? How is a station even further away from downtown Middletown going to accomplish what the current station hasn't?
  by Suburban Station
 
gp80mac wrote: How many? There is no downtown left to screw. You think people getting off the train are going to walk to Karn's Markets? (about the only business there). If they live in downtown Middletown, they probably already patronize those few businesses. If they don't they are hopping into their cars and driving home. Plenty of places to stop along the highways and biways on their way home. The airport site is closer to the I283 Connector. AP is on 230/truck route 441 just down the street. They are not that far apart, but still not close enough to walk to from downtown Middletown. But both can easily be served by already-existant CAT bus routes.
oh c'mon, stop with the non-existent CAT bus already. nobody's riding the CAT bus. if they did, then they could take a CAT bus to the airport. I took the train, had lunch at the brownstone, and took the tourist train. obv, most of the traffic is going the other way, and yes, it makes a difference to businesses near the station where it's located. any suggestion otherwise is a lie.

gp80mac wrote:
The people of Middletown did not reject the airport site,
yep, they did.
gp80mac wrote: the airport authority and Amtrak got into a pissing match about who was going to pay for the station. People use Etown and Middletown for one reason - free parking. It's cheaper than paying to park in Harribsurg, unless you are the lucky few that gets a permit. All of the arguments locally I've seen about Middletown has been focused on one issue: parking. And so you are saying that people that want to use HIA are less important than a few Middletown residents without cars?
I'm saying the town is more important than the non-existence airport riders yes. the AP Grene site is closer to the long term parking lot than the airport site and doesn't require moving over NS territory. it offers a better parking solution than the airport and is still within walking distance of the town. and yes, people are upset about the station being moved out of the borough.
gp80mac wrote: It just seems silly to have an all-but commuter RR passing in sight distance of an international airport. Sure HIA isn't as busy as it should be. But in 10 years? Who knows. Transit should be convenient to each other.
"should be." the AP Green site is plenty close to the airport, far closer than the NEC site.

gp80mac wrote:
So is AP Green, and so is HIA. but besides from the people from the retirement community, who is walking to the Middletown station? And they surely won't be walking the whole way out to AP Green. The ideal spot for a "downtown" supporting station is the current spot. But with ADA, and the banked curve, the station will not last forever.
it's a couple of blocks to AP Green, not a big deal. not out in the middle of nowhere like the airport site.
gp80mac wrote:
NS isn't going to pay to move their tracks. We will. But moving their track out isn't as abd as moving the entire M&H interchange. Where is that going to go? And don't look for any future upgrades to the Keystones for a long time. The state is broke. They did upgrade the tracks to 100mph running at spots, which is about as good as you will ever get. Even if you can raise the speed limits more, is the extra xxxx million dollars worth it to shave a few minutes off the commute of a few people? The Corridor 1-2-3 projects seem to be as dead as a doornail as well.
but the site is more than permanent so "any time toon" isn't relevant. why are pro-sprawl commuters more important than the town? the corridor 1-2-3 ideas were stupid. traffic isn't that bad in harrisburg that an extra Keystone or two can't solve the Lancaster-Harrisburg commute. honestly, it amazes me that you're even torlling a rail forum since you don't seem to have any interest in railroads. yes, millions of dollars will shave 15 minutes off the ride to Philadelphia for commuters and other riders. the line was partially upgraded bu some spots haven't been touched and the signaling system is antiquated. no, it's not as good as it gets,just much better than it was.
gp80mac wrote:
You know, I tried to read this planning book a year ago. The authors just said that everything should be like Georgetown. My question: what if I don't want to live in Georgetown? That is the problem with MANY planners. They think people want to live in hip, urban trendy environments. I think they'd be surprised how many people DON'T. Besides, if people want to live in a town, there's no lack of them around here. Middletown. Hummelstown. Steelton. Highspire. Elizabethtown. Take your pick. I did study some planning in school, but i could never fall into that "utopia" category. I am too much of a realist.
right, and middletown has a train station. +1
gp80mac wrote:
You paint a pretty picture, but these areas are plagued with flowover crime and blight from Harrisburg. If people want to live within easy commuting distance from Harrisburg, they go to the west (white) shore. And try to talk those people into starting a commuter rail line from HBG into their towns. Hah. They don't even want the Walnut St. Bridge rebuilt.
Middletown seems alright.
gp80mac wrote:
PS. The trains are already in downtown Middletown. We've had better service for a couple years on the Keystones. Now tell me, how come Middletown's downtown hasn't become *THE* place to be? Could it be that rail transit isn't the catalyist that many tell us it is? How is a station even further away from downtown Middletown going to accomplish what the current station hasn't?
who said anything about THE place to be? ridership has been increasing at this stop as well.
put this in your pipe and smoke it
Westporte Centre, the hotel-restaurant-supermarket complex that would transform Middletown’s western entrance on Route 230, has won approval from the borough’s zoning hearing board, but it’s still uncertain if a new train station will be included at the site.

The Middletown Zoning Hearing Board waived building height restrictions and awarded other variances to developer James Nardo of Hershey to build a four-story hotel, restaurants and grocery store on the site of the vacant AP Green warehouse.

The tip of the site, at Route 230 and the Ann Street bridge, will either be the home of a train station or a convenience store, depending on whether the state Department of Transportation chooses the site as an Amtrak station, said Nardo.
PennDOT is considering two sites for the station, the other is in Lower Swatara
http://www.pressandjournal.com/articleD ... px?ID=2952
  by gp80mac
 
I spent a lot of time stuck behind non-existant CAT buses discharging and picking up non-riders when I used to drive through Middletown on my way to work in Harrisburg. I've also seen plenty of Keystones with barely enough people to fill a single amfleet, less 5 of them. Oh let me guess.. you're one of these "rail transit is ALWAYS better than bus" people. That kind of fractured thinking will get us nowhere fast.

So you went to the Brownstone and rode the M&H. Congratulations. I'm sure every commuter is going to do that every day. And the people in Middeltown never had a say in the station, besides being told that the current one won't cut it. The station was orignally planned (or many assumed it was planned) to go in with the newest HIA terminal, until the HIA authority expected Amtrak to foot the bill for it. And depending on how they designed it (I never saw drawings, did you?) it probably won't be any more of a hassle to relocate the NS Roy Branch than at AP Green. But AP has the added hassle of the M&H interchange and all that mess.

I have lots of interest in railroads, my good sir. But I don't think the solution to all of our planning issues is to throw billions of tax dollars at something and hopes that it magically makes everyone want to live in a ghetto. Again, I ask.. why is Middletown still in their current economic state despite the fact that they have decent Keystone service? (Yes, I am pretty familiar with the Amtrak improvements.)

I liked your article. A train station *OR* a convenience store. Truth be told, Middletown is lacking a decent convenience store, with just a simple 7-11 down the street. A nice full sized Turkey Hill or Sheetz would be great at that location. Hard to believe they want a grocery store there... it'd proabably end up shutting down the Karns in town. Big empty storefront in the heart of downtown. That will do wonders. Then again, they could tear it down (at least the parking lot) and build the M&H interchange there.
  by [email protected]
 
Please let me know which trains don't have enough passengers to fill one amfleet. I ride the Keystone frequently at many different times of the day and it is always well patronized. During rush periods it it fills 5 full amfleets. The vast majority are well patronized. Also, in my experience while a walkable community is not for everyone, it does help create the kind of community that suburban developers have been trying to build for decades. I don't think we should fault the Middletown community for trying to save a critical component of their community. I don't know enough about the situation to say which is better but I can feel for the people of Middletown wanting to keep a station in their community.

Now lets all settle down are remember that is a discussion board and not a place for yelling back and forth without ever conceding if the other makes a valid point.

My questions is what is the current time table for the Lancaster renovations!

Sean
  by gp80mac
 
I usually see the first and last trains. Sure, the last one is probably more of an equipment move, but if 3 people are on it at Lancaster, it is a good day.

The problem is that neither the AP Green Site, nor the airport is within the central business district. Yes, there are proposals to develop the western side edge of Middletown, but there's always plans like that for every town in this area. Middletown is laid out kind of funny. More of an elongated town. There's no real town square... just a couple of main roads passing through. (441 and 230). Is the main part of town along 441 and the amtrak station? Or is it up on the other main road (230) and those shops and stores? The first is more "traditional", while the latter probably attracts more people. The latter is also closer to AP green... but it's still ont he western edge of town. I just don't agree with the idea that the station is going to be some huge catalyst for urban renewal.

I think they are working on Lancaster now. They put up temporary trailers for the MoW and C&S guys along the platforms. I guess they are working on the part of the station that those guys usually call home.
  by Suburban Station
 
gp80mac wrote:I spent a lot of time stuck behind non-existant CAT buses discharging and picking up non-riders when I used to drive through Middletown on my way to work in Harrisburg. I've also seen plenty of Keystones with barely enough people to fill a single amfleet, less 5 of them. Oh let me guess.. you're one of these "rail transit is ALWAYS better than bus" people. That kind of fractured thinking will get us nowhere fast.
Keystone ridership has been growing year over year since 2003. each year, there are more people on the train. the service is growing into its own. are most keystones running with five people? no, that's ridiculous. it's also unrealistic to say that peopel wil take an infrequent CAT bus rather than a short walk to the station. it's not the same no matter how you dress it up. what's worse, is that you advocate that for train riders, but god forbid the non-existent airport riders have to use the bus.
gp80mac wrote: So you went to the Brownstone and rode the M&H. Congratulations. I'm sure every commuter is going to do that every day.
nobody said they would. I conceded the traffic is largely the other way, but whatever you can make up to support your position I suppose.
gp80mac wrote: And the people in Middeltown never had a say in the station, besides being told that the current one won't cut it. The station was orignally planned (or many assumed it was planned) to go in with the newest HIA terminal, until the HIA authority expected Amtrak to foot the bill for it. And depending on how they designed it (I never saw drawings, did you?) it probably won't be any more of a hassle to relocate the NS Roy Branch than at AP Green. But AP has the added hassle of the M&H interchange and all that mess.
right, but the people of middletown don't support that and it was never a good idea, leftover from the backwards thinking of highways first, towns last. it's not the optimal solution. as noted, the AP Green site is both accessible to the main road and the downtown as well as parking. the airport site is inacessible to parking and the town, serving only the non-existent airport riders.
gp80mac wrote: I have lots of interest in railroads, my good sir. But I don't think the solution to all of our planning issues is to throw billions of tax dollars at something and hopes that it magically makes everyone want to live in a ghetto.
billions? that's a flat out lie. nobody's talking about billions. the entire upgrade proposal which included SEPTA improvements and major station redevelopments came in under half a billion, less than restoring service to Scranton, and would have added half a million riders (or more). calling middletown a ghetto is another lie. the town is a little down and out, but it's a safe middling town, not a ghetto.
gp80mac wrote: Again, I ask.. why is Middletown still in their current economic state despite the fact that they have decent Keystone service? (Yes, I am pretty familiar with the Amtrak improvements.)
what state is that? it's an okay town. probably their biggest problem, IMO, is ther shared school district. it doesn't help that people like you have been out to screw towns over for the past 70 years either, by removing their economic assets and only investing in their outskirts.
gp80mac wrote: I liked your article. A train station *OR* a convenience store. Truth be told, Middletown is lacking a decent convenience store, with just a simple 7-11 down the street. A nice full sized Turkey Hill or Sheetz would be great at that location. Hard to believe they want a grocery store there... it'd proabably end up shutting down the Karns in town. Big empty storefront in the heart of downtown. That will do wonders. Then again, they could tear it down (at least the parking lot) and build the M&H interchange there.
don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. trying to sell a gas station as just aas good as a hotel.restaurant/supermarket complex is pointless. truth be told, the article solidifies the point that train service can indeed drive economic development. if people on the west side of harrisburg don't want train service, why should middletowners be penalized so they can easily drive to a station? easy, they shouldn't.

AP Greene: close to economy parking at airport, on main street, a couple blocks from the town center. will drive some redevelopment, it's the only compromise station between the existing site and the airport interests.
airport: near terminal but not next to. close to nothing else.
  by gp80mac
 
Yes, Keystone ridership is gaining. But CAT carries its share of people, too. Both can co-exist. After all, there is no station stop in Steelton or Highspire.

The rational behind the airport station is not "highways first" (although to pretend that highways don't exist is foolish), but rather creating a true multi-modal transportation system. A place where rail, air and bus can share one spot. BWI has its station, Philly, too. If HIA wants to compete in the big leagues, they need rail transit. Is AP Green close enough? Or will the bus be a hassle? I don't know. Will the airport station be too far for M-town? Who should get priority?

Middletown isn't the safest place in the world. But none of those towns are. And by the way, I live in an old town. I'm not really a fan of suburban cul-de-sac hell, but I realize that many people like those things. And I can see a major positive for them: your own garage and driveway. I don't understand these fake traditional "towns" that are springing up all over the place. Seems the money could be better spent on already existing towns. But that's for another forum.

I'll wait until I see economic development before saying the train station caused it (if it happens). And if a new development on the west side of Middletown hurts downtown Middletown, is it a good thing'? Depends on your viewpoint, I guess. Besides, as Ipoint out for a third time, the current station and increased frequency and lowered cost of Keystone service has not done much for the section of downtown Middletown it is in. Could a new development on the west side of Middletown flourish, in my opinion? I think so. But not because of amtrak. But because it's at the intersection of (truck) Rt. 441 and 230. A very busy place for traffic. A modern, big convenience store would do great there. So would a grocery store, maybe.

Still have to work on the M&H track thing, though.
  by Suburban Station
 
gp80mac wrote: Yes, Keystone ridership is gaining. But CAT carries its share of people, too. Both can co-exist. After all, there is no station stop in Steelton or Highspire.
not saying they can't, but forcing people onto CAT for no good reason and pretending it's just as good as the stop being in town is hogwash.
gp80mac wrote: The rational behind the airport station is not "highways first" (although to pretend that highways don't exist is foolish), but rather creating a true multi-modal transportation system. A place where rail, air and bus can share one spot. BWI has its station, Philly, too. If HIA wants to compete in the big leagues, they need rail transit. Is AP Green close enough? Or will the bus be a hassle? I don't know. Will the airport station be too far for M-town? Who should get priority?
HIA isn't in the big leagues. the AP green is closer to the airport than the BWI stop on the NEC. Amtrak does not serve PHL, you have to transfer to SEPTA. It will still be an intermodal terminal. as noted, there's no reason the shuttle bus for the economy parking can't also stop at the AP Green site across the street. people drive to the airport even though they have to park and take the shuttle bus. I imagine if anyone is using this train to get to the airport, it's people from the philly area where traffic actually is a problem...but fares are generally higher than those at PHL. in terms of moving people to an airport, it might be of more benefit to have a high speed connection to PHL...especially now that they've decided to put nearly $6 bn into the airport to address the congestion issues.
gp80mac wrote: Middletown isn't the safest place in the world. But none of those towns are. And by the way, I live in an old town. I'm not really a fan of suburban cul-de-sac hell, but I realize that many people like those things. And I can see a major positive for them: your own garage and driveway. I don't understand these fake traditional "towns" that are springing up all over the place. Seems the money could be better spent on already existing towns. But that's for another forum.
no, but it's not bad either.
gp80mac wrote: I'll wait until I see economic development before saying the train station caused it (if it happens). And if a new development on the west side of Middletown hurts downtown Middletown, is it a good thing'? Depends on your viewpoint, I guess. Besides, as Ipoint out for a third time, the current station and increased frequency and lowered cost of Keystone service has not done much for the section of downtown Middletown it is in. Could a new development on the west side of Middletown flourish, in my opinion? I think so. But not because of amtrak. But because it's at the intersection of (truck) Rt. 441 and 230. A very busy place for traffic. A modern, big convenience store would do great there. So would a grocery store, maybe.

Still have to work on the M&H track thing, though.
interestingly, a very busy airport would also negatively impact the quality of life in middletown. I think most in MDT would prefer to see the station stay just where it is. in fact, the people I've talked to bring up the expense of NS and M&H as a reason why the current site is just as viable. whether or not you can really build a station on curved track isn't something I can comment on. Havin an Amtrak stop with fast, reliable service would obviously be a selling point for that development. Of course, if you want to see real change, you need to see real improvements in trip time. as ridership increases, the locations near the station improve.
  by NotYouMOS
 
MudLake wrote:
Matt Johnson wrote:From what I remember, the Keystone trains roll past Harrisburg Airport at over 100 mph. Putting a station there would certainly reduce the amount of high speed running.
Mr. Johnson, perhaps your memory is failing you. A new station outside of the airport would mean a relocation of about 1 mile from the current Middletown station. That's not to mention that Middletown is in the middle of a severe curve which likely has quite a low speed limit. It's possible no train has ever passed the airport at 100 mph even if it wasn't stopping at Middletown.
The electrics can and do hit 100 between HAR and Middletown.
  by NotYouMOS
 
twropr wrote:A PENNDOT contact told me that reverse signalling is supposed to be cut in between Holland and Leaman some time in May. Has anyone seen any evidence of C&S work east of Lancaster recently?

Thanks!

Andy
There are supposed to be two new interlockings cut into Cork Tower control starting in April with Leaman. That, of course, hasn't happened yet. Once they are cut in it will open up the capability to run them reverse down 4track from Holland to Leaman or Atglen on signal indication. There is actually a signal now at Holland that can be displayed for eastward movements on 4 track but it is of course requiring a Form D.
  by Suburban Station
 
NotYouMOS wrote: The electrics can and do hit 100 between HAR and Middletown.
I'm always amazed at how fast those electrics get up to speed. I know they proposed raising speeds to 125 mph (ignoring the likelihood of that actually happening anytime soon)...what sections do you see 125+ as being feasible?
  by Lackawanna565
 
My older brother and I were down in Lancaster county on sunday. The new signals were in place at Leaman Place. Only one is active.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7 ... 1061576080
Last edited by Lackawanna565 on Thu May 27, 2010 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by NotYouMOS
 
Suburban Station wrote:
NotYouMOS wrote: The electrics can and do hit 100 between HAR and Middletown.
I'm always amazed at how fast those electrics get up to speed. I know they proposed raising speeds to 125 mph (ignoring the likelihood of that actually happening anytime soon)...what sections do you see 125+ as being feasible?
Don't know that the Keystone service will ever go to 125. I would imagine it definitely won't happen until they eliminate the 3 grade crossings between Thorndale and Harrisburg.
  by j653
 
PA just received federal funding to do just that -- remove the remaining grade crossings. Once that happens, what's the next obvious speed restriction besides curvature? Catenary?
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