• Northeast Regional 188 - Accident In Philadelphia

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

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  by Silverliner II
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 4:33 pm Had PTC not been delayed and was active on that track but with no other adjustments, I think the crash still would have happened, but at a slower speed, and NTSB would be screaming at Amtrak for screwing up the install.
No, the crash would not have happened. Had PTC been active with no other adjustments, it still would have placed the train into emergency, because despite the Clear signal, PTC also enforces the civil speed limit of the track, which on that curve is only 50 or 55mph (I forget which at the moment). Because there was no braking occurring for the upcoming reduced speed, PTC would have stopped the train short of Shore by use of either a penalty or emergency application, based on how far over the limit the train was going.
  by STrRedWolf
 
n2cbo wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 4:47 pm Let me give an example of how the (I'll call them "Urban Youths") throwing/dropping a brick or whatever from the Diamond Street Bridge could possibly be held criminally liable for the deaths.

Example: some "Urban Youths" decide to pull a couple of fire alarm boxes with false alarms. One of the fire engines gets into a FATAL accident while responding to the false alarm. The "Urban Youths" can be charged with FIRST DEGREE MURDER in some jurisdictions since they caused death while they were committing a FELONY.

Now, I am not familiar with the criminal code in Philadelphia, but since the damage maliciously caused was probably in excess of $200.00, in some jurisdictions that act could be charged as a felony.

DISCLAIMER: I am not an attorney, I only played one on the radio (I used to co-host a legal themed talk show on the radio)
Neither am I. I'm just a software engineer.

The thing is, there's another scenario where the engineer of the SEPTA train had to call up for medical support: Someone on the train is having a seisure or heart attack. (I had thought a trespasser strike would do it, but that would shut down the entire line almost immediately)

The point is, for six minutes (per NTSB report) the radio was tied up, and I won't be surprised if the engineer of 188 was keeping an ear out for a full stop order in case of officers on the track (but then the signaling would of turned full red anyway and everyone would of slammed into emergency). I think that radio chatter link is a bit too far removed legally for the kids to be charged with 188's deaths.

I do think they're guilty of attempted manslaughter on SEPTA's engineer and destruction of property, though!
Silverliner II wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 5:37 pm
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 4:33 pm Had PTC not been delayed and was active on that track but with no other adjustments, I think the crash still would have happened, but at a slower speed, and NTSB would be screaming at Amtrak for screwing up the install.
No, the crash would not have happened. Had PTC been active with no other adjustments, it still would have placed the train into emergency, because despite the Clear signal, PTC also enforces the civil speed limit of the track, which on that curve is only 50 or 55mph (I forget which at the moment). Because there was no braking occurring for the upcoming reduced speed, PTC would have stopped the train short of Shore by use of either a penalty or emergency application, based on how far over the limit the train was going.
From what I saw in the report, the 50 mph speed limit on the curve starts at the curve. It's 80 mph before it. I still think it would of crashed, but not as bad and the train would be on full emergency at the time.
  by justalurker66
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:03 pm From what I saw in the report, the 50 mph speed limit on the curve starts at the curve. It's 80 mph before it. I still think it would of crashed, but not as bad and the train would be on full emergency at the time.
PTC would have known the point where the the train needed to be at 50 MPH, estimated a braking curve for the train to reduce speed to 50 MPH and enforced any speed over that curve. As the train accelerated as it approached the curve it would have violated the 80 MPH limit as well as the braking curve - in either case the penalty brake would have been put in to effect. This programming is similar to approaching a stop signal where PTC knows the train must be at 0 MPH. It doesn't go in to penalty when it reaches the red signal (too late to stop) it triggers penalty braking when the train exceeds the braking curve.
  by west point
 
Another item about the signal system upgrade to limit speeds on curves. As I recall it only took Amtrak about a week to upgrade all signals leading to curves to denote their restricting speeds. That was a FRA requirement for Amtrak to resume service thru Frankford. Think about it just a week !
  by Silverliner II
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:03 pm
Silverliner II wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 5:37 pm
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 4:33 pm Had PTC not been delayed and was active on that track but with no other adjustments, I think the crash still would have happened, but at a slower speed, and NTSB would be screaming at Amtrak for screwing up the install.
No, the crash would not have happened. Had PTC been active with no other adjustments, it still would have placed the train into emergency, because despite the Clear signal, PTC also enforces the civil speed limit of the track, which on that curve is only 50 or 55mph (I forget which at the moment). Because there was no braking occurring for the upcoming reduced speed, PTC would have stopped the train short of Shore by use of either a penalty or emergency application, based on how far over the limit the train was going.
From what I saw in the report, the 50 mph speed limit on the curve starts at the curve. It's 80 mph before it. I still think it would of crashed, but not as bad and the train would be on full emergency at the time.
Yes, it is 80 before the curve, but PTC will enforce before the 50mph curve because the train would be in violation of the braking curve that it should be in so that it is at 50mph at the time the curve is reached. Remember, in all aspects of operation, PTC is designed to enforce everything BEFORE any changes that take effect, so that the train does not overrun the next target ahead. With that in mind, the crash still would not have happened if it was in place.
That is why we get warning alerts well ahead of time if we are not acting fast enough to satisfy PTC. We get a chance to make corrective action before it enforces for us.
  by west point
 
I thought that it was calculated that if the train was just a bit slower it would have not overturned ? Was it some number between 10 - 15 MPH ? Also PRR had an overspeed accident at Frankford during WW-2.
  by justalurker66
 
west point wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:21 pm I thought that it was calculated that if the train was just a bit slower it would have not overturned ? Was it some number between 10 - 15 MPH ? Also PRR had an overspeed accident at Frankford during WW-2.
There was one caused by a mechanical defect (snapped axle) in 1943. Overspeed was not the cause of that accident.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Silverliner II wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:38 am Yes, it is 80 before the curve, but PTC will enforce before the 50mph curve because the train would be in violation of the braking curve that it should be in so that it is at 50mph at the time the curve is reached. Remember, in all aspects of operation, PTC is designed to enforce everything BEFORE any changes that take effect, so that the train does not overrun the next target ahead. With that in mind, the crash still would not have happened if it was in place.
That is why we get warning alerts well ahead of time if we are not acting fast enough to satisfy PTC. We get a chance to make corrective action before it enforces for us.
Assuming it was set up properly. As seen, we can't really assume that past a third-party audit.
  by Jeff Smith
 
What needs to happen is the charges need to be dismissed "with prejudice". In that case, they can not be reinstated for the umpteenth time.
  by Backshophoss
 
Have a feeling this father will not give up untill he gets his "conviction" or a Judge finally tells him to stop. as Jeff described above.
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