Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

[L'mont]

I don't think that we'll see PENN access from MNRR anytime soon. There are too many hurdles to cross and Penn is JAMMED.

Not to mention, there isn't much of a need for MNRR service to Penn. Grand Central is just as conveniant for city office works, if not more conveniant. There is far more commercial office space around Grand Central and the access to lower manhattan is easy, via the Lexington Ave Line.

There are more people going from Penn to the vicinity of Grand Central than there are people moving from Midtown East down to 33rd and 7th.

[Jeff Smith]

I don't think that we'll see PENN access from MNRR anytime soon. There are too many hurdles to cross and Penn is JAMMED.

Not to mention, there isn't much of a need for MNRR service to Penn. Grand Central is just as conveniant for city office works, if not more conveniant. There is far more commercial office space around Grand Central and the access to lower manhattan is easy, via the Lexington Ave Line.

There are more people going from Penn to the vicinity of Grand Central than there are people moving from Midtown East down to 33rd and 7th.

Agree Penn is jammed, but not that GCT is more convenient. Commuters want one-seat rides. When I worked in Manhattan, I had to go across to 7th and 52nd. Not a bad walk, except at Christmas when Rock Ctr is full of glazed-eyed tourists, and even on bad weather days, I could get most of the way underground. But for a subway, it was two transfers, from MNRR to the 7 or S, and then up the Broadway IRT or 6th Av IND. Definitely not worth it. A west-side alternative to GCT would be viewed by MNRR passengers much as ESA is to LIRR - about half would prefer it, and it would save them time. Maybe not from 34th, but from 42nd (in other words, an alternative terminal to Penn, such as ARC)?

No doubt, GCT is convenient for many, but I disagree that there is far more commercial office space near it than say on the west side. Have you seen Times Square lately? As for an "easy" downtown connection, you ever stand on an overcrowded Lex platform? And with ESA it's going to get worse, until the 2nd Av is fully complete (not just the N stub).

No, I think there's just as much need for West Side access for MNRR, with Penn's connections to LI and NJ, I just don't think it will happen anymore given what I've learned here about Penn's conditions, unless they can find a solution like the LIRR did with converting the Madison yards.

[Dinker]

Times Square is almost equidistant from GCT and Penn.

[Jeff Smith]

Times Square is almost equidistant from GCT and Penn.

Agree, but on a north/south axis, it's west side. Same diff if you're walking or taking a subway hop, and it's a single hop. But if you move north or south on broadway/6th, that's two subway rides vs one, at least until you get below Union Sq, from GCT. And there is a lot of office space on that axis below Central Park, at least as much vs. the GCT area. It would also relieve a lot of Lex overcrowding, where there is one line (three trains) vs multiple west-side lines.

I guess my point is, if ESA is so crucial to the LIRR, why wouldn't WSA be just as crucial for MNRR, for the same reasons, notwithstanding that it won't happen in the foreseeable future.

[harryguy082589]

Is this what you were talking about: http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/psas/ ?

The reason east side access is more important to LIRR than west to MN is that an larger percentage of jobs are located closer to GCT than NYP or Times square (i'll try and find where i read that)

[NIMBYkiller]

ESA will NOT open new spaces at NYP. It will just open new spaces at GCT for LIRR ONLY. This is just so that the LIRR can operate more trains into midtown. Expect a drop in the amount of service to Hunterspoint Av and possibly even Flatbush Av.

I do think though that MN to NYP should be done. For one, it would unite all the commuter rail lines. In a world where many people live in one RRs territory and work in anothers, this will be greatly appreciated. Second, there's Amtrak at NYP. While I'd rather see a tunnel from NYP to GCT and Amtrak shift back to GCT, I know it's not going to happen.

[DutchRailnut]

ESA has nothing to do with Metro North and will not even impact GCT operations, there is active tread at LIRR forum on this subject.

[harryguy082589]

New tunnels and expansions are expensive and time consuming. Add connecting Amtrak service from New Rochelle & Yonkers for a commuter fare and that will be fine. If\When NJT has moved out and some of the other projects have been completed and if ESA is successful, think of building some sort of other link from GCT to PSN

[L'mont]

Agree Penn is jammed, but not that GCT is more convenient. Commuters want one-seat rides. When I worked in Manhattan, I had to go across to 7th and 52nd. Not a bad walk, except at Christmas when Rock Ctr is full of glazed-eyed tourists, and even on bad weather days, I could get most of the way underground. But for a subway, it was two transfers, from MNRR to the 7 or S, and then up the Broadway IRT or 6th Av IND. Definitely not worth it. A west-side alternative to GCT would be viewed by MNRR passengers much as ESA is to LIRR - about half would prefer it, and it would save them time. Maybe not from 34th, but from 42nd (in other words, an alternative terminal to Penn, such as ARC)?

No doubt, GCT is convenient for many, but I disagree that there is far more commercial office space near it than say on the west side. Have you seen Times Square lately? As for an "easy" downtown connection, you ever stand on an overcrowded Lex platform? And with ESA it's going to get worse, until the 2nd Av is fully complete (not just the N stub).

No, I think there's just as much need for West Side access for MNRR, with Penn's connections to LI and NJ, I just don't think it will happen anymore given what I've learned here about Penn's conditions, unless they can find a solution like the LIRR did with converting the Madison yards.

I think that GCT is much closer to the core of commercial business in Manhattan. You can't possibly say that there is as much going on withing a 5 block radious of Penn as there is within' 5 blocks of GCT. Think about it. 5th ave, Madison, Park, Lex and 3rd. From 37th St. into the 50's. This is a major business core.

I will say, however, that the Lex Subway is BRUTAL with no end in sight. Not even from the N stub.

[nh chris]

I guess this is off-topic for the forum, but there is an extensive display of photos, maps, and tunneling information on the ESA plan outside the Transit Museum store in GCT. Very interesting stuff, looks like limited access to GCT from the new LIRR platforms (on one end of the dining concourse).

NH Chris

[MNRR_Rep]

Speaking of that display, it includes several computer generated pictures of what ESA would look like. One of them shows a new platform with blue striped M1/3's on both sides. It has no markings but really only MNRR runs a train that looks like that.* You know a project is not going well when those running it aren't familiar enough with the current LIRR fleet to produce an accurate concept drawing.

*I am well aware that LIRR does have a few blue striped M3's lying around, but you never see them all bunched together in one consist. Always as a pair or sometimes two in a set of "plain" M1/3s.

[Kurt]

I think thats how old the ESA plan is, LIRR still had blue striped M1s, the plan was started in th 70's, If I remember correctly, only M series cars will fit, the LIRR DM-30s will not fit in the 63rd street tunnel.

[DutchRailnut]

Again I would like to ask moderator to move this tread to LIRR forum.

[Nester]

I just don't think it will happen anymore given what I've learned here about Penn's conditions, unless they can find a solution like the LIRR did with converting the Madison yards.

The new LIRR terminal in GCT is underneath the current GCT. What was once Madison Yard will now be high speed escalators, IIRC.

[harryguy082589]

I just don't think it will happen anymore given what I've learned here about Penn's conditions, unless they can find a solution like the LIRR did with converting the Madison yards.

Would the post office work? As i recall orignaly Amtrak wassupposed to be in it with NJT, but then backed out, could MNR take its place?