Viewliner II Delivery/Production

Mod Note: we're pretty far from the core topic - please stay on topic. Thanks!

sorry , my point was , that once the new viewliners were avaliable , they could be used for the chicago - florida cap - silver service thru service . thus preserving the ny connection , and not requiring anymore superliners . use of the trans dorm as in the pennsy proposal would allow this . perhaps it may require one of the new viewliner diners as well .
So my reason for bringing it up in this thread was a possible use for new viewliners .

David Benton wrote:sorry , my point was , that once the new viewliners were avaliable , they could be used for the chicago - florida cap - silver service thru service . thus preserving the ny connection , and not requiring anymore superliners . use of the trans dorm as in the pennsy proposal would allow this . perhaps it may require one of the new viewliner diners as well .
So my reason for bringing it up in this thread was a possible use for new viewliners .

A good suggestion, although not a great one. It's highway 1158 miles from Chicago to Orlando per Yahoo maps via Indianapolis, Lousiville, Nashville, Chattanooga. Atlanta, and Macon. I'm sure rail miles would further. At an average Amtrak train speed off the Northeast Corridor, let's say 45 mph and that's being generous, it'll take that train nearly 26 hours to travel that far. Assuming daily service in both directions, it'll take at least 4 trainsets, requiring 4 diners and sleepers, and who knows how many Amfleet 2 coaches. A longer or slower route would add at least 1 additional trainset, more likely 2. I don't think Amtrak at 25 Viewliner 2 Diners has bought enough for this relatively long new route. Presently, Amtrak squeaks by with 20 Heritage Diners and 50 Viewliner 1 sleepers. Dedicating 4 of the 5 additional diners for this new route doesn't leave many in reserve, considering they're probably planning on putting 1 or 2 into Cardinal service.

electricron wrote:

David Benton wrote:sorry , my point was , that once the new viewliners were avaliable , they could be used for the chicago - florida cap - silver service thru service . thus preserving the ny connection , and not requiring anymore superliners . use of the trans dorm as in the pennsy proposal would allow this . perhaps it may require one of the new viewliner diners as well .
So my reason for bringing it up in this thread was a possible use for new viewliners .

A good suggestion, although not a great one. It's highway 1158 miles from Chicago to Orlando per Yahoo maps via Indianapolis, Lousiville, Nashville, Chattanooga. Atlanta, and Macon. I'm sure rail miles would further. At an average Amtrak train speed off the Northeast Corridor, let's say 45 mph and that's being generous, it'll take that train nearly 26 hours to travel that far. Assuming daily service in both directions, it'll take at least 4 trainsets, requiring 4 diners and sleepers, and who knows how many Amfleet 2 coaches. A longer or slower route would add at least 1 additional trainset, more likely 2. I don't think Amtrak at 25 Viewliner 2 Diners has bought enough for this relatively long new route. Presently, Amtrak squeaks by with 20 Heritage Diners and 50 Viewliner 1 sleepers. Dedicating 4 of the 5 additional diners for this new route doesn't leave many in reserve, considering they're probably planning on putting 1 or 2 into Cardinal service.

Agreed, I just don't see this being a starter at this point.

If there's new Florida service,I can really only see extending the Palmetto.

I doubt the Capitol Limited will get transformed into a Viewiner train after this order of Viewliners comes to full fruition. If it did, then the Capitol Limited would have to be extended to Hialeah, where the Viewliners are serviced and they can get connetivity with other VIewliners originating out of NYC. I don't see Amtrak being this smart, and I don't see Amtrak wanting to jeopardize the current one night trip to/from Washington DC and Chicago.

Could the Silver Palm come back? Yes, but I don't think Amtrak is looking to "create service." Rather, I think they are looking towards this Viewliner II order to augment existing consists. And of course this will make "platforming" the train even longer (double stops) due to short platforms etc. However, if one looks at the plan, it would seem that something is being planned with the Diners, since many more have been ordered than are currently operated with Heritage Diners:

4 - Silver Meteor
4 - Silver Star
4- Crescent
3 - Lake Shore Limited

TOTAL: 15
TOTAL DINERS AVAILABE UPON COMPLETION OF ORDER: 26 Diners (including current Viewliner Diner 8400)

I don't think another Diner will be needed if some trains operate with an extra Viewliner sleeper.

Thus, hopefully Amtrak will look into running the Cardinal Daily (3 Diners Needed), and possibly through cars on the Pennsylvanian (to the Capitol Limited) where 3 Diners will be needed (plus a Viewliner sleeper).

That will put 21 out of 26 Diners into service, leaving 5 in reserve. This seems adequate. It's certainly better than VIA's plan, where some trains don't even have a Diner backup (i.e. the Ocean running with Renaissance equipment).

Let's hope Amtrak gets the Diners, Sleepers, and Baggage/Dorms done first. Then they can worry about the non-revenue baggage car - which I think are a waste to create out of Viewliners.

Any news on Amtrak putting the current Viewliner Diner in operation on the Lake Shore Limited - Car #8400?

afiggatt wrote:

neroden wrote:We also know that it's a 5-year contract and that (so far) Amtrak is paying for it one year at a time out of revenues, with the first year paid for. This means I can roughly estimate that the production of 26 cars are paid for. (Yes, I know it doesn't work exactly that way.)

We also know that the first car will come off the line circa October 2012 and that it will be a diner (from the latest Amtrak Ink).

What we don't know is what order the subtypes will be produced in. I think we can assume that all cars of one type will be produced, then all cars of another type -- it makes no sense to set up the assembly line any other way. If the first car is a diner, we can expect all 25 diners to be produced first, which makes sense given the Heritage diner problems.

But what I don't know, which I'm curious about, is what order the *rest* of the cars will be built in. I would guess dorm/bag, then sleeper, then baggage, but I haven't actually seen any official statements.

(Incidentally, with the Viewliner prototype, that's 26 diners; current service apparently requires 15 in service; which means there might be room to add diner service to one more single-level train.)

The Viewliners are designed to be modular cars which can be converted from one configuration to another. If CAF has several final assembly areas, one could be for installing the components for diners, the other dorm-baggage and baggage cars. The delivery sequence has not been made public as far as I know, but Amtrak may have asked for them to be in intermixed order so they can fit out one single level LD train service at a time with the new Viewliner IIs.

But CAF is limited in the number of types it can produce at one time by the number of final assembly areas... and the baggage cars and bag/dorms have to have those big baggage doors, which destroys the modularity . Unless they have a LOT of floorspace going to waste, I expect they'll do one configuration at a time.

jp1822 wrote: If the Lake Shore Limited continues to be the cleanup train out of Chicago, it might be wise to add a Viewliner to this train. However, will 4 Viewliners in a train consist require an additional Viewliner DIner? Likely..... I forget if they ran an extra diner when indeed the Silver Star and Meteor were combined for a few months one summer around 2005 or so.

Just as a data point, VIA Rail runs one Diner per 5 or 6 Chateau/Manor Sleepers on the Canadian. Since the Viewliners hold a few more passengers than a Chateau/Manor Sleeper perhaps, serving 4 Viewliners Sleepers out of a Viewliner Diner should be feasible provided Amtrak adequately staffs the Diner. Current problem at Amtrak has more to do with continued understaffing of Diners, than with the Diners themselves.

What is the status of production in Elmira? Have they actually started assembly (or at least preparation for assembly?) or are they still in the design phase for the diners based on feedback from #8400?

How many people are currently working in the facility?

neroden wrote:The Viewliner IIs are designed to be modular cars which can be converted from one configuration to another. If CAF has several final assembly areas, one could be for installing the components for diners, the other dorm-baggage and baggage cars. The delivery sequence has not been made public as far as I know, but Amtrak may have asked for them to be in intermixed order so they can fit out one single level LD train service at a time with the new Viewliner IIs.

But CAF is limited in the number of types it can produce at one time by the number of final assembly areas... and the baggage cars and bag/dorms have to have those big baggage doors, which destroys the modularity . Unless they have a LOT of floorspace going to waste, I expect they'll do one configuration at a time.

Well, I'm still waiting patiently for drawings or artist's concept paintings of what the new cars will look like.

Also, I distinctly remember reading somewhere recently that the modular design concept has been a general failure and that Amtrak has given up on it, so the new cars will be built in the traditional manner with as much reliability and maintainability kept in mind as possible. (I just can't remember where and when I read that.)

Just saw the note about how baggage doors destroy modularity by taking up too much space - is it possible plugs could be used? They do such for center doors on certain SEPTA, NJT, and South Shore equipment. Below, this is not a center door... it's a plug.

Tadman wrote:Just saw the note about how baggage doors destroy modularity by taking up too much space - is it possible plugs could be used? They do such for center doors on certain SEPTA, NJT, and South Shore equipment. Below, this is not a center door... it's a plug.

Would the baggage doors on a Viewliner II baggage car go where the plugs are for slidng the modular sleeper rooms in? Without drawings or more detailed information on the different Viewliner II models, we don't know much about what they will look like or how they will be configured.

afiggatt wrote:

Tadman wrote:Just saw the note about how baggage doors destroy modularity by taking up too much space - is it possible plugs could be used? They do such for center doors on certain SEPTA, NJT, and South Shore equipment. Below, this is not a center door... it's a plug.

Would the baggage doors on a Viewliner II baggage car go where the plugs are for slidng the modular sleeper rooms in? Without drawings or more detailed information on the different Viewliner II models, we don't know much about what they will look like or how they will be configured.

That would be the obvious choice and my guess (with a door on the opposite side also of course).

Seems to me if you're going to put in an opening that size, might as well use it for both: baggage and compartments.

I hiked the right of way from the park over the summer and ended up in Elmira Hts at a gate. The Tracks had overhead trolley wire. The tracks I was told by the locals were a main line at one point. Now with the car plant making RR cars again will they clean up this branch and remove the weeds. The last RR cars were made were for Dallas LRV

I live near the California Zephyr main line and every day I see it go by my house.....the cars are starting to look really old and beat up. Are there any plans for replacing or upgrading the coaches or sleepers on any of the long-distance routes with new cars?

With one exception, no. Amtrak will receive new baggage cars in the near future, and I believe they are for system-wide use. The bilevel superliners that make up 8-10 cars of each CZ are not slated for replacement soon. Some are from 1981 and some are from 1995 (you can tell by the trucks, the '95s use fairly conventional U-shaped trucks seen under Horizon cars while the '81s use funky-looking German trucks).