Upper Harlem - Wassaic Extension - Questions, Info

Sarge wrote:When MNRR decided to extend to Wassaic, I know Wassaic was chosen as the end point as the rails were still in place for freight service (which I believe CR had basically abandoned). Otto mentioned in another thread about an extension being considered to Millerton. Why was Millerton being considered and ultimately not pursued?

According to Wikipedia's entry on the Harlem Line, (which as always, should be taken with a grain of salt, but I don't see why anyone would maliciously falsify this), the tracks north of Millerton were removed shortly after service to Chatham ended in 1972. It says the tracks north of Wassaic were removed a decade later, when freight service to Millerton ended. This was the year before Metro-North was formed, so MTA probably had little or no say in keeping the tracks in place.

Expansion further north is not too likely -- the track bed north of Wassaic has been taken over by the Harlem Valley Rail Trail. As has been said on this board many times in the past... once the tracks are removed, it's tough (and expensive) to put them back. When the track bed has been replaced by a trail, you can all but forget about it. As you can see on the HVRTA website, MTA no longer owns the trackbed. Even though the bed is now owned by other parts of the state government, it's highly unlikely those agencies would simply give the land back to MTA unless there's a desperate, compelling need to extend the line. (Even then, it might be tough... but I don't see that even being a concern in the foreseeable future.)

The Chatham passenger train held on for some time after the start up of Amtrak. The State of New York had no interest in
state support for service north of Dover Plains at the time so when the start-up of Conrail occurred a connection was put in
between the Maybrook Line and the Harlem at Dykemans so dimension cars could still be handled on the Harlem.
At the same time the line north of Millerton was abandoned but between Millerton and Wassaic the line was retained by
the Penn Central estate and supported by New York State for continued local freight service to Millerton. This lasted for a
year or two and the state lost interest. At the time service to Wassaic was provided for by the final system plan for
Conrail so there was no question of retention of the line to Wassaic for local freight operations.
This is what saved this portion of the line for the present Metro-North commuter service. There is no doubt in my mind that
commuter service would have been justified north of Wassaic had the state not been so short sighted a few years ago.
Unfortunately, as others have state, operation north of Wassaic would be both expensive and difficult. Too bad the state
did not see fit to rail bank this line. The area is growing and service north of Wassaic could be very beneficial but it is not
likely to occur.
Noel Weaver

I edited my original post as I realize after the replies (thank you, all insightful) that I didn't draw the comparison as the choice for extension being Millerton vs. Wassaic. I didn't mean to imply MNRR was currently considering such an extension, only that Millerton was a choice vs. Wassaic. It's clear there will be no such extension today.

Thanks again.

Abandonment dates:

Chatham passenger service: March 1972 (It hung on for months after Amtrak since it was neither clearly intercity nor clearly commuter eveidently nobody could figure out how it fit. it was eventually determined the service didn't fit anywhere)

Chatham freight service: March 31, 1976 (day before Conrail startup)

Millerton freight service: sometime after that although I forget when.

Wassaic freight service: December 1992. The Wassaic freight was part of the Conrail "Danbury cluster" and when Conrail got out of that in Dec. 1992 the Wassaic freight never ran again.

Conrail continued to serve a feed mill at Millerton until 1980. Tracks were removed between Wassaic and Ghent in 1981. In the Conrail days, the tracks ended at Maxon Mills in "downtown" Wassaic. Where the present Wassaic terminal is, they had to replace tracks past MP 82.

-otto-

Tom Curtin wrote:Abandonment dates:

when Conrail got out of that in Dec. 1992 the Wassaic freight never ran again.

Not totally true, MNCR ran a freight for HHRC to retrieve the last car at tri-wall and to retrieve cars south of Dykemans.
The rail from Dover plains to Wassaic was so bad it was lifting off the ties as soon as the B23-7 hit the joints.
Despite using a MNCR pilot crew and engine the move was with a HRRC crew, so infact a HRRRC move.
With HRRC not owning any engines with Cabsignal/atc the move had to be made with MNCR engine.

Here is some more concerning the end of various services on the Harlem.
The Chatham trains remained after the start up of Amtrak running under a court injunction. Various factions went round
and round until finally during the day March 20, 1972 the court order was lifted. The train left Chatham that morning but
immediately after lifting of the court order the Penn Central pulled the train off right on the spot. This action earned the
railroad some nasty write ups in the press but they did not care and neither did they care how the people got back to
stations between Dover Plains and Chatham.
Last southbound local freight left Chatham on Saturday, March 27, 1976. Trackage between Millerton and Chatham was
torn up in the spring and summer of 1979.
The last local freight departed Millerton on Friday, March 28, 1980 and the track was torn up between Millerton and
Wassaic in 1981.
The book "The Coming of the New York and Harlem Railroad" by Louis V. Grogan has much more material on the Harlem
and I recommend it for sure. It was published in 1989 and it may still be in print.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:The Chatham trains remained after the start up of Amtrak running under a court injunction. Various factions went round and round until finally during the day March 20, 1972 the court order was lifted. The train left Chatham that morning but immediately after lifting of the court order the Penn Central pulled the train off right on the spot.

You had many factors: Penn Central declared bankruptcy on June 22, 1970, the MTA began a subsidy agreement with Penn Central that same year. The only reason the Chatham train continued to operate without regard to subsidy was because the Federal bankruptcy judge was sympathetic to the cause of the Upper Harlem commuters. The supporters made a good case for this 12-car packed train to keep operating. However, when it became clear that Penn Central was not going to be reorganized by conventional means and traditional bankruptcy was out, a new Federal judge was assigned to the case and the way I understand it, he was brought in as a "hatchet man" to end petitions for unprofitable services and expedite the bankruptcy case to ease the way for government bailout. Why the Penn Central sought immediate negative publicity by dumping everyone off at Dover Plains is beyond me. Maybe that was more of the ex-PRR "red team" sticking it one more time to the ex-NYC "green team." Philadelphia showing New York who's boss.

I wonder if that crew got paid for a full day even though their trip terminated at Dover Plains. Wonder how they got home if they lived in Chatham. Surprised the crew was not the victim of physical violence that night. So many things ring wrong with that story... but those were the times.

-otto-

Otto, can you expand on your comment from the parking thread your comment about "you should have let us build it to Millerton like we wanted?" That's what I was curious about.

Sarge wrote:I edited my original post as I realize after the replies (thank you, all insightful) that I didn't draw the comparison as the choice for extension being Millerton vs. Wassaic. I didn't mean to imply MNRR was currently considering such an extension, only that Millerton was a choice vs. Wassaic. It's clear there will be no such extension today.

Even though my first response did drift more towards why the line can't be extended to Millerton today, I had attempted to imply that the reason even in 2000 is because the tracks were already gone. Even though extensive work was required to restore the line to its current terminus, it would have cost much, much more (in time, money and red tape) to get the trackbed completely rebuilt up to Millerton.

I think another factor for ending in Wassaic is the fact many "extreme" commuters from points to the north and east were already willing to make the drive to Dover Plains -- so extending the line for their convenience was mostly an added benefit -- when the main goal was finding ways to provide more parking capacity. Everything up to Dover Plains is pretty much "maxed out" when it comes to parking -- the stations are located in the hearts of villages, surrounded by buildings. There's no room for additional parking, and "expanding upwards" with garages would not be feasible.

By expanding to Tenmile River and Wassaic, there are many more new parking spots for those "extreme commuters" coming from points north and east... and as I said in a different thread, there's plenty of room to expand the existing parking lot at Wassaic, if/when it's ever deemed necessary and profitable. I'd even dare to guess the tiny lot at Tenmile River could be expanded -- I kind of wonder why it was built so small to begin with. Only 68 spaces according to mta.info (though I only counted 50 in this aerial view), and surrounded by empty land.

Sarge wrote:Otto, can you expand on your comment from the parking thread your comment about "you should have let us build it to Millerton like we wanted?" That's what I was curious about.

Preliminary proposals in the 1990s floated the idea of extending all the way to Millerton. Community opposition and reduced resources cut the project back to Wassaic. That's really about it.

-otto-

Preliminary proposals in the 1990s floated the idea of extending all the way to Millerton. Community opposition and reduced resources cut the project back to Wassaic. That's really about it

.

The Town of Northeast, which Millerton is located within, wanted a ton of money for the right of way they didn't even own. The Village of Millerton didn't want train service because the weekenders they were trying to lure to their quaint little Utopia wouldn't buy there because of the "lower class" (illegal immigrants) of people that a railroad would attract. See Brewster or Dover Plains as an example. The ironic thing about Dover Plains is that these so-called lower class people, who are not only hard working but God fearing, fortunately chased out the PWT"S (Poor white trash drunks and crackheads on the public dole.)

The extension opposition to Wassaic was lead by a wingnut grocery store owner who didn't want the urban sprawl. Guess what? It came before the extension ! Thats why MNCR did it, didn't they ? There were some who wanted a station in the Hamlet to reinvigorate the immediate area. (Just imagine how much coffee and breakfast that grocery store would have sold to commuters.) Of course, parking, or the lack of weighed heavily against the idea, (Although there had been a station there for 100 years) These same shortsighted people fought so hard against the project , Metro North almost said "The heck with it," and were close to shelving the idea.

Fortunately, the NIMBY (aka townie) mentality is fading as more and more people migrate north from the Westchester/NYC area. I'm pretty sure when the economy recovers from the recession/depression we are in, the real estate market will pick up and more train service will be needed on the track that exists.

Just putin in my nickel and taking 2 cents change,

Pat

I read somewhere in one of the studies the MTA did, is that some commuters come from as far north as Albany. But if you walk around the wassaic lot in the morning you'll see NY, CT, MA and even Vermont license plates. Alot of people come from the Great Barrington area. So figure, prior to them the next three stations past Wassaic were Amenia (a good sized town, 44 goes through it), Sharon Station (served residents of CT, although was located in NY) and then Millerton which is a big town, right near Pine Plains, Lakeville, Irondale and Pulvers Corners. if anyone here has been to Millerton, you know that it is a relatively busy town, its no Westchester town, but for being up in Northern Dutchess County, and on the CT border,it boasts a department store, movie theaters, restaurants, auto dealerships, a Sears. In my opinion, Millerton would be an ideal next stop for the Harlem Line. Will it happen, no. Should it of happened when the MNR added service to Wassaic, yes, but in my understanding they had to move quickly.

McGinty26 wrote:The Town of Northeast, which Millerton is located within, wanted a ton of money for the right of way they didn't even own. The Village of Millerton didn't want train service because the weekenders they were trying to lure to their quaint little Utopia wouldn't buy there because of the "lower class" (illegal immigrants) of people that a railroad would attract... There were some who wanted a station in the Hamlet to reinvigorate the immediate area... Of course, parking, or the lack of weighed heavily against the idea, (Although there had been a station there for 100 years)...

Essentially, yes. The town thought they owned the right of way. There were still issues with the Penn Central estate and who owned the right of way. Others were pushing for a trail. The crunchy granola types wanted to keep Millerton a cow town ("Welcome to Dutchess County. Please set your clocks 20 years back.") and created such a false-uproar that Metro-North went into retreat. Similar to the Rhinecliff proposal. It also doesnt help that many of the original stations suffer from Old Put Syndrome: either located in the middle of a village with no provision for expanded parking or located out in a farmers field away from population centers.

At least the rail trail is kept paved and graded. Will make a nice smooth path for the construction equipment to come in and lay new rail in 2025. See? I can fantasy-foam too.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:At least the rail trail is kept paved and graded. Will make a nice smooth path for the construction equipment to come in and lay new rail in 2025. See? I can fantasy-foam too.

-otto-

Otto, it's nice to have you back!

Out of curiosity only, would there be room for ROW and a trail, similar to Beacon:Hopewell? I know it was dbl-track east of Hopewell, but I believe down to Beacon it was single-track only.