Trains Other Than Silverliners/MP54's In Mid 1970's???

I remember back when I was in 4th grade, my class went on a field trip into Center City, Philadelphia by train from Marcus Hook. It was around this time of year (Holiday Season, 1974). The inbound train that we were on did not resemble any of the Silverliners. It looked more like the original Metroliner MU's, but it had the reversible "walk-over" seats, unlike the airline style seats on most Amtrak coaches. As far as I know, the regional rail lines back then were operated by Penn Central Railroad, and the rolling stock consisted mainly of Silverliner II's, III's and MP54's. This may have been just before the first Silverliner IV's went into service. Does anyone know if the train I was on could have been an experimental one used prior to the purchase of the Silverliner IV's? Or, is it likely that the SL IV's came with walk-over seats, that were later replaced with stationary seats? Or, could it have been a Metroliner MU with walk-over seats used for local commuter service? Does anyone else recall any types of trains, other than the Silverliners and MP54's being used for commuter service in the Philadelphia area during the early/mid 1970's??? Anyway, the train we returned on was a bumpy MP54!!!

Sounds like you had an encounter with the PRR's Pioneer III cars, later known as Silverliner I cars.
A couple of them are at the RR Museum of Penna. at Strasburg. More info can be found on the web.

I KNOW that they were not Pioneer III's (a.k.a. Silverliner I's), as they looked identical to Silverliner II's, except for the pantographs. As I mentioned before, the train I rode on with my class in 1974 looked more like the original Metroliners, but with commuter (bench) style "walk-over" seats. I know they had to be newer than the Silverliner I's, II's and III's. Would it be likely that when Penn Central operated the Metroliners, they made more local stops, such as Marcus Hook, Chester, etc.??? If so, maybe it WAS a Metroliner my 4th grade class rode on.

I am fairly sure that the Metroliners NEVER had the 'walk over' seats, as they were never designed as 'commuter' coaches. They were designed with comfort and speed in mind (and a bench does NOT connote that!), for at the time, railroads were hemorraging red ink. I believe that they always had the airline-type seats that the newer Amfleet coaches have.

... although, I could be wrong??

SubwayTim wrote: ..except for the pantographs

Ok, next clue: What was different about the pantographs?

SubwayTim wrote:I KNOW that they were not Pioneer III's (a.k.a. Silverliner I's), as they looked identical to Silverliner II's, except for the pantographs.

The Pioneer III's and SLII's do look identical, except for the pantographs (and couplers, of course). P III = <>, SLII = >

Would it be likely that when Penn Central operated the Metroliners, they made more local stops, such as Marcus Hook, Chester, etc.???

By 1974, the Metroliners would have been operated by Amtrak, not PC, and would not have been used in local service.

Dave's Rail Pics might be helpful here: http://www.davesrailpix.com/prr/prr.htm

Of course I'm not sure he's gotten the classifications right at the very bottom. The "Pioneer" picture appears to be totally correct, and appears to illustrate the pantograph differences others have brought up here. However, the lower line of photographs labeled "Silverliner I" are quite incorrect, as the left-most is definitely an Arrow I, the second from the left photo is a Silverliner II (can't read the number, but it might be coupled to a Silverliner I), and the right-most picture is another Silverliner II. I don't know the lineage of USDOT T-2, but I'd guess it's a Silverliner I/Pioneer III following its passenger career.

Assuming this site is accurate then it'd quite adaquately demonstrate the numbering and rooftop arrangement of the EMUs in question: http://pc.smellycat.com/docs/equip/muroster.html

Here's a comparison of Pioneer III and (Reading) Silverliner II.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/312 ... aAiXIyoiLH

http://community.webshots.com/photo/853 ... 1905NqLSmV

Bob

Best I can tell, the US DOT car was a modified S II.

the Pioneer III and Silverliner II cars SHOULD look the same - they're the same exact car body (minus brackets for propulsion). They were both classed as MP85 (as were the metros!). The biggest change between the two was a different propulsion system - the PIII cars used a Westinghouse ignitron based system that used switched resistance control, and was about 400hp, the SL IIs use a GE ignitron (converted to SCR?) based system that used phase angle control and was a few more HP (600?). This, plus a vastly uprated transformer, and slower, larger TMs, pushed the weight up 12,000 lbs. And that was the big change. otherwise, a slight uprate in air conditioning and minor changes were made.

Basically: What's interesting is the HP:ton goes up a bit but the weight per seat went up too. At the time, it was significantly better than the MP-54's weight per seat and HP per ton, with the '54 weighing about 2,000 lbs per seat (!). If you believe 400hp on the '54 (they varied from type to type), then you had about 5hp per ton, on par with diesel stuff...

The PIII cars were a LOT faster, cheaper to run, and could top out at 80mph to boot. The SL IIs were heavier but slightly faster and could top out at better than 80. It would have been interesting if budd could have resolved the PIII's gearbox issues and kept the high speed TMs on the SL IIs, they could have dropped a few thousand (maybe 3 or so) off the SL II's weight, bringing them a bit closer to the LIRR M-1 cars in terms of performance or better (which would have been downright mindblowing, the as-designed M-1s were actually quite punchy, it's the LIRR's dinking with the acceleration rates and the inevitable dead cars that make them so sluggish today)

The Arrows III I believe had standard GE-Faviley pans origionally, all Westinghouse cars (Metroliner coaches, Arrow I) had Stenmann pans. Basically, you can tell a GE Metro from a Westinghouse Metro by the pan - I don't think they interchanged.

chuchubob wrote:Here's a comparison of Pioneer III and (Reading) Silverliner II.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/312 ... aAiXIyoiLH

It's hard to tell in that picture, but did the P-III's use the diamond-shaped pans like the MP-54's, or did it have the Z-shaped pans like the SL-II's?

The PIII's had the older style pans, similar to those on the MP54's, GG1's, etc. That was certainly the easiest spotting feature of these cars.

<i>The PIII's had the older style pans, similar to those on the MP54's, GG1's, etc. That was certainly the easiest spotting feature of these cars.</i>

Identical, I believe. Was the standard Westinghouse design that was used for so many years prior. Looked silly but they work pretty darn well.

Take a look at N.J.T. spicificly the Raritan Valley trains.They run trains of 5 to 6 car sets of de-motored mu equipment.These cars looked identical to the silverliner 3's (St. Luis co.220-239) from the front but the side looked like a silverliner 4. They had Diamond shaped pantographs, walk over seats and center doors.Penn Central ran these in service to Trenton N.J.for the state of N.J. in the 70's untill the G.E. cars were deliverd.
A shot in the dark but they maybe what your talking about.

The other discernible difference, at least as the cars were originally delivered was that the Pioneer III's had circular windows in the end entry doors. It appears from Bob's photos that these were later changed, but the original Pioneer III entry door- windows were circular.

enginman125 wrote:Take a look at N.J.T. spicificly the Raritan Valley trains.They run trains of 5 to 6 car sets of de-motored mu equipment.These cars looked identical to the silverliner 3's (St. Luis co.220-239) from the front but the side looked like a silverliner 4. They had Diamond shaped pantographs, walk over seats and center doors.Penn Central ran these in service to Trenton N.J.for the state of N.J. in the 70's untill the G.E. cars were deliverd.
A shot in the dark but they maybe what your talking about.

The cars you are descibing are the Comet Ibs, which were simply the original Arrow Is with the propulsion package and center door removed. It is unlikely that these ever saw service between Marcus Hook and Philadelphia. The Arrow Is were pretty much purchased specifically for rescheduled service between New York and Trenton. Their order came just after the Silverliner IIs, and they featured 2.2mph/s acceleration with a 100mph top speed.

http://www.hobokenterminal.com/comet1b.html