• To electrify or not to electrfy the Port Jefferson Branch

  • Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

Moderator: Liquidcamphor

  by Noel Weaver
 
thrdkilr wrote:Why can't you guys have a discussion without taking or making it personal? 1st of all, I'm retired military (22 years, 2 wars), have a college degree and an A&P license (got them at night school). Had been working on those marketable skills during my career. I was shocked to find the job situation when I retired. Down here in South Florida a friend of mine is a construction sight foreman for high rises, he tells me they now have to write into the contracts that at least one guy will speak english per crew. That the apprenticeship programs are going by the wayside because management doesn't want to pay them while they learn (ex. appren. crane operators, they used to do all the grunt work and then observe during crane ops), these guys will do electrician's, plumber's and masonary work at half what the UNION GUY's get! They work here for a couple of years (8-10 toa trailer/duplex) and then go back to their home countries and live like king's for 20 years. I don't have that option, I thought I was already home. Something like 25% of said countries GNP come from US wages! Thats what my son will have too compete with. Don't think your safe, you might be one of the last they come for, but their coming!
I believed I used the words EXTREME several times, which means, the answer lies from the present situation to that extreme, it was laying the framework for a discussion, not a salvo. Besides, is expertise, really how a lot of LIRR guys get their jobs? Politics, nepotism, networking, where do I go to school to learn/ get certified in those fields?
Do you want to have a discussion or put up walls?
I too live in South Florida, I hear and read of construction jobs with
whatever labor (union or non-union) people getting killed or badly hurt
on jobs, work not up to code, shortcuts taken every chance there is and
people working for less all of the time. What do you expect?, Florida is a
right to work (for less) state.
Having said that, I do not think your purpose on here is to have an honest discussion. I think you are on here to stir up trouble.
I do not think you really know squat about railroading.
I seem to remember your name somewhere else on one of these forums
regarding unions or working conditions on the LIRR.
Your college degree nor your night school license, whatever that is, does
not make you any smarter, only that you were taught more, whether you
learned it or not.
Noel Weaver

  by Clemuel
 
thrdkilr,

You did make this tread quite personal when you said that You would gladly work under substandard conditions for the pay that railroad employees receive. So I feel that welcomed my comments about your work standards, present income, etc.

You can clearly see that the rail worker and you are at two separate ends of the spectrum. Retired from the military, you never knew a high salary nor was your income much affected by market salaries.

Railroad workers have for years negotiated their salaries. In a capitalist society, a worker is paid what he is worth. If an employer feels his workers are overpaid, which most employers do feel, he will attempt to hire lower priced replacements. While unions may slow this process, it doesn't prevent it.

Two LIRR examples come to mind. The buying power and true earnings vs. real inflation have decreased considerably in the past ten years. Raises have been about 1/3 of actual inflation.

The Railroad has hired several hundred Managers at much lower than union wages who will, eventually replace many of the front line workers.

The problems posed by immigrants are not new, although the "anti-American" sentiments of our legislators are. The marketplace, outside the military of course, is becoming much more competitive in this decade as the dollar is further devalued by government inflation and restrictions of manufacturing and business.

Which solidifies my earlier comments that we must learn skills that are in demand or which pay well. If your assessment of Railroad work as work which requires little skill is correct, those salaries will eventually decline.

In the meantime, Sarge, either sent in a resume or start importing Chinese crap to sell at Wal-Mart.

Clem

  by Liquidcamphor
 
thrdkilr..

My response to you was not intended to be personal but to add rebuttal to your post. I was describing what I would think the life of a guy like "Mark" wouldbe if he worked as you described.

Now look, we are all well aware of the current employment climate in the USA..we are also aware of our own Government's attempt to deindustrialize this Country and lower the standard of living of it's citizens in order to build up the standard of living in countries that have been in existence longer than our's yet because of elitism, corruption and totalitarianism have never allowed their people to prosper as our Government once did in our Country. We are also aware, that no matter how much outsourcing and capital we pour into those countries, they will still have a general population on the bottm and a few on the top.

People in this Country fought for their rights and standard of living. Nothing was given to our Fore Fathers, the Founders and Labor regarding rights, privelages and a decent standard of living. The present climate in this Country is playing on the apathy of a population that has known a Country of prosperity and power. Some people forget how blessed the USA has been to have the men who founded this Country living in the same time on the same little dot on Earth willing to put everything on the line to fight for what they believed was right. God help us when we decline and we WILL decline. I say WILL because we are doing ourselves. Everytime you buy something regardless of where it is manufactured to save a buck, you add to this decline.

But something is forgotten here in this discussion. It's in our National psyche to not give in an inch even to our detriment. This is a population that would see itself destroyed before it ever surrendered to a foreign power. Think about that.

So even if we as Labor are stubborn and unwilling to give in, even to our detriment, think about how we as Americans are in general and then you'll understand.

  by thrdkilr
 
Here here Liquid C!! I to would not expect mark to work those hours. Mr Weaver, my intent is not to stir up trouble, just a discussion. I never said I knew much about railroading, nor that I'm smart, but please don't question my passion for railroading. I was merly trying to point out that I had been working on my marketable skills. As for unions, you may be right, all I know is when I was in the meat cutters with the A&P back in 1972, they didn't do much for me when the A&P went down the toilet, and I don't think they'll be able to do much for the employees of the LIRR when the money dries up. I just took a vacation up to LI, mainly to see and experience some of the thing I've read in this forum. I don't know when the last time you were up there was, but I was shocked at what I saw, in Greenport, I saw the men on the conners, just like in Florida, Hempstead just made me sad. Trust me, NY is not immune.
Did I not discribe the inherent problems a commuter railroad faces correctly? Trust me Mr Weaver, I want to see the LIRR saved, many of the tracks I walked as a lad are now gone.
I see that you are a VET Mr W. May I ask why you choose to live in Florida and shop at Wallyworld. It wouldn't be the low cost of living and the low China prices? Is that a pro-union way of life?
I'll just read the forum from now on Mr. W., it looks like you only want certain kinds of people to participate.....

etc

  by Noel Weaver
 
thrdkilr wrote:Here here Liquid C!! I to would not expect mark to work those hours. Mr Weaver, my intent is not to stir up trouble, just a discussion. I never said I knew much about railroading, nor that I'm smart, but please don't question my passion for railroading. I was merly trying to point out that I had been working on my marketable skills. As for unions, you may be right, all I know is when I was in the meat cutters with the A&P back in 1972, they didn't do much for me when the A&P went down the toilet, and I don't think they'll be able to do much for the employees of the LIRR when the money dries up. I just took a vacation up to LI, mainly to see and experience some of the thing I've read in this forum. I don't know when the last time you were up there was, but I was shocked at what I saw, in Greenport, I saw the men on the conners, just like in Florida, Hempstead just made me sad. Trust me, NY is not immune.
Did I not discribe the inherent problems a commuter railroad faces correctly? Trust me Mr Weaver, I want to see the LIRR saved, many of the tracks I walked as a lad are now gone.
I see that you are a VET Mr W. May I ask why you choose to live in Florida and shop at Wallyworld. It wouldn't be the low cost of living and the low China prices? Is that a pro-union way of life?
I'll just read the forum from now on Mr. W., it looks like you only want certain kinds of people to participate.....
I chose to live in Florida because after forty one years working all seasons
on the railroad in the northeast, I am simply sick and tired of cold winters
and snow and ice. I earned my retirement and decided on it here.
My last ten years was spent running between Selkirk and Buffalo and it
gets mighty cold and miserable in that corridor in the winter time. I made
my share of trips in below zero weather conditions with some going just
fine and others with all sorts of problems.
Is south Florida perfect?, of course not but at least it is warmer here than
just about anywhere else in the US and even in the summer, everywhere
that I go has AC.
As for Walmart, I have NEVER bought anything at that establishment and I
NEVER will. To me they are a minus for every community where they
choose to locate, labor hating, union hating and offer much cheap imported junk. They have put a lot of good people out of work, have
forced a lot of family business to go under and represent nothing good to
me.
Now, one more thing, I would suggest when you post on here that you
stay away from labor issues, there are a number of current and retired
railroad employees who post here and we are OFFENDED by some of the
remarks that have been posted on this site. I assure you, if I am
offended by somebody's posting, I will reply back.
Noel Weaver

  by mark777
 
I don't even want to get too involved with this, but I see that I will have to. In contrast to the way other railroads work, you will quickly find that the amount of hours that LIRR employees put in are equal to what others do. In fact, many Amtrak crews as well as folks who work on CSX, NS, UP, ect... can and do work up to the 12 hours before they are dead on the law. How can a RR possibly be run more efficiently by having employees work a 4 hour shift in the morning, and have to return for another 4 hours in the evening? Companies in Corporate America don't do these kind of things. They may have part-time workers, but not many people will be willing to sacrafice such a huge chunk of their time at work and less at home. We all already do that as the way things are. Factor in times spent commuting and you begin to see how pointless it would be. Flexibility already exists by the fact that you have folks who like to work the early AM jobs that start at 12-2am, morning people who like to start at 4-8am, and then you have folks like me that fall under what we call half night jobs which typically begin after 1pm. Thats plenty of flexibility from employees. The split schedule doesn't work for the RR industry, and infact doesn't work for the most part in the real world. You either have full-time workers or part-time workers. No one needs to waste time in the middle of the day when they could just keep working straight through and leave earlier. People, no matter who they are all have lives outside of work, and most of us would prefer to keep things the way they are.

Again, I don't speak this way as a proud union loving employee. This is the way things have always been, and in no way does this play a role in any problems that you may see with the LIRR or the MTA. The problems that lie here as I said before revolves around politics. Just read today's Newsday report and you begin to see where things stand and who is responsible for the problems. When you speak of problems associated with equipment, well guess what, it happens everywhere, and don't let anyone fool you into thinking that say MNR or NJ Transit or Amtrak don't experience problems with their equipment. Use it in everyday commuter operation racking up hundreds of miles a week and things begin to ware and tare. Then factor in the weather, the abuse the equipment takes (from commuters as well) and you begin to understand how things work. If people want to complain about the increasing cost of taking the LIRR, well then they need to get a better grip on the way things are going on around you in the world as a whole. I don't agree with the higher fares but factor this in: the price of gas has gone up, the price of food has gone up, Property on LI is so astronomical, it feels like that by 2015, a good bargin will be a home of $800,000 to a million dollars! The price of cars have gone up and so have the insurance rates, all the things that your car requires, (tires being one of them). Airfares have gone up with the exception of airlines such as JetBlue and SWA, I can go on and on. Life is getting expensive, yet somehow the LIRR is singled out and is made into everybody's punching bag! Our service is horrible?? really? I've been outside of NY and have ssen how long people have to wait for their commuter trains or subways which most do not operate 24 hours a day or as frequent as the LIRR runs. Amtrak trains are consistently late and passengers pay so much more money to ride than do LIRR commuters. The LIRR will never go down. If it did, the economy would pay the ultimate price. Can you imagine the percentage of the population the LIRR or mass transit in the NYC area transport on a daily basis? Now picture all of those folks on the road at the same time. At that point, LA won't have nothing on us when it comes to traffic jams. Passengers on LI don't have many options. A cab? Would you like to know what a cab will charge you just to go from say Ronkonkoma to NYC? Try $60.00 ONE-WAY. Drive? sure, and make sure to bring plenty of money with you so that you can park your car at those bargin parking lots in the city that charge you $50.00 a day!

You also missed something here. Hiring illegals to work if possible won't solve your problem, for you see, in order to run trains, you have to educate yourself and be properly trained to operate your jobs in a very SAFE and efficient manner. It's kind of hard when you have folks who don't know how to speak english, and who don't want to either. You see, I'm spanish, and I speak it, and I hear all of those illegals talk, and if only you could understand what it is they say, you would then want to ever so quickly ship them off to their foreign lands with no questions asked. Many of them lack ethics and degrade latin americans who have entered legally and busted their buns over the years just to make a life for themselves. The folks you see are trash talking drunks who most are uneducated even in their own native language, so how would a company that relies on 100% safety be able to hire these type of people? You don't think that there will be accidents occuring on a constant basis? You think that these folks care about other people? I really wish that everyone can understand what they say, and so that you will be able to get a better sense for their character. I'm off on a tantrum here, and I need to stop. But one last note, The union issue that some of us speak of is a double edged sword. In my eyes, and I have always been unionized even in my past jobs, unions have a benefit to employees. Sure it has it's bad sides, but in the long run, it is needed to ensure the protection of the employee. It is what acts as a police when power hungry over zealous employers begin to flex their muscle around. Yes, we are gauranteed 8 hours a day, but so are most people in the work place, wether they be part-time or full-time employees, they are guaranteed an amount of hours a day or a week. I would never ever work in a place that is non-union. There is no protection, there is no representation which can greatly affect employee morale. Lets face it, when people like their jobs, and feel safe, production will be efficient. If anyone disagrees with me, well thats fine, your entitled to your opinion, but there is so much more involved in what we do at work than what people see, and It's always easy for someone to just look at us and feel that we are overpaid and that the RR could be run more efficiently. But the truth is, while we get paid well, we still don't get paid enough to deal with the problems that we are faced with everyday, and most of us are not complaining.

  by Pacobell73
 
mark777 wrote:The branch itself with sharp curves will not support higher speeds of 60 MPH in most places therefore making the use of MU's pointless.
What is the track speed between Hicksville and Port Jefferson? I am still amazed at the difference in travel time between Port Jefferson and Ronkonkoma. I understand how Ronkonkoma is as fast as it is.

My parents live in Coram and we are always torn between Port Jeff and Ronkonkoma. The Port Jeff train felt like it crawled between the Port and Huntington. Those hills, twists, and turns? I know this branch is a challenge for any LIRR engineer.

  by alcoc420
 
This is from memory, but it is close: the branch is 80 to Huntington, 65 from Huntington to Nicolls Road, and 30 east of that except the curve at divide is 40, the first curve at Syosset is 50, the second is 45, the curves in Cold Spring Harbor are 45, the curve at Huntington is 30, the curves east of Greenlawn are 40, first curve east of Kings Park is 30, the next curves are 40, the Nissequogue River bridge is 40, the first curve east of Smithtown is 45, from Gyrodyne to Nicolls Road it's 40 or 45, east of Nicolls its 30. Looking at it a different way: the only places a train can stretch its legs are 5 tangents between Divide and Syosset, Syosset and Amott, Hunt 3 and Greenlawn, Northport and Kings Park, and Smithtown and St. James.

  by Pacobell73
 
WOW! I had a feeling it was slow, but I did not think I was below 40 mph. No wonder Ronkonkoma is as popular as it is. Port Jefferson is practically a tourist line.

  by Bensalem SEPTA rider
 
alcoc420 wrote:This is from memory, but it is close: the branch is 80 to Huntington, 65 from Huntington to Nicolls Road, and 30 east of that except the curve at divide is 40, the first curve at Syosset is 50, the second is 45, the curves in Cold Spring Harbor are 45, the curve at Huntington is 30, the curves east of Greenlawn are 40, first curve east of Kings Park is 30, the next curves are 40, the Nissequogue River bridge is 40, the first curve east of Smithtown is 45, from Gyrodyne to Nicolls Road it's 40 or 45, east of Nicolls its 30. Looking at it a different way: the only places a train can stretch its legs are 5 tangents between Divide and Syosset, Syosset and Amott, Hunt 3 and Greenlawn, Northport and Kings Park, and Smithtown and St. James.
With a little teaking, could we get the curves to 60?

  by NIMBYkiller
 
More like a LOT of tweeking.

  by SeldenJrFireman
 
If we are going to tweak every curve to get to 60, why dont they just bank the curves 30 degrees like Daytona or Talladega Superspeedway and go as fast as they can?

I wouldn't want to be on a train that is moving fast around tight curves just to have the guy next to me spill his coffee and I get all burned up.

This is a commuter line Bensalem, not a rapid transit system where the trains take off like a rocket out of the station like in the NYC subway!

  by Pacobell73
 
SeldenJrFireman wrote:This is a commuter line Bensalem, not a rapid transit system where the trains take off like a rocket out of the station like in the NYC subway!
I gotta agree with SeldenJrFireman. The R7 out of Bensalem is on Amtrak's NEC. The Port Jefferson line is equivelent to the Reading's double-track Bethlehem branch between Quakertown and Hellertown. You know? The one that Conrail stopped using because of the tight curves and steep grades...hmm..sounds like the Port Jeff line.

The Port Jeff line would easily have been abandoned in this area (Bucks County) in favor of nearby lines. But on LI, it's the only bet in town for the North Shore. And all the commuter lines are still in use on LI, for obvious reasons. Not the same around these parts.
Last edited by Pacobell73 on Sun May 01, 2005 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

  by NIMBYkiller
 
Actually, we are missing a few of the original lines.

etc

  by Noel Weaver
 
The very characteristics of the Port Jefferson Branch would increase the
logic of putting the third rail down to Port Jeff.
The grades and curves are handled much better by MU equipment than
by diesel equipment. MU equipment can accelerate out of a station much
faster than a diesel electric locomotive can and can also recove from
slowdowns too.
The running time between stations could probably be shortened up
considerably by the use of MU equipment.
Case in point, Metro-North Harlem Line Brewster to North White Plains in
1972 with diesel operation 53 to 58 minutes; Metro-North with MU operation from Southeast which is about 1.4 miles longer than Brewster
the time varies from 46 to 48 minutes.
The branch might not be as picturesque but it would be a lot more efficient.
Noel Weaver