The East Broad Top

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:Oh geez. Well, first, I would want to establish a working relationship with the Kolvachicks. Cannot do anything without that.

Don't "oh geez" me, I'm trying to figure out what your plans are to reactivate the EBT and do all the things you talked about. You're the one who started this conversation, so we want to see your plans.

My friend, please take this is the spirit it is meant: you are waaay too confrontational to really have a rational conversation, so I will answer your questions in a cooperative manner vs. aggressive. Let's remember: this is not a debate. I sit on the Communications committee for the Greenline (http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 72&t=55885) , and this is hardly how they discuss future growth for a line that has potential.

First off, I am not a business man nor did I ever claim to be. I merely have ideas that you are asking I elaborate on. What might not seem like a doable scenario may be quite doable for another.

Secondly, let's take the "you" out of the equation from the get-go. It esatablishes a bad precedent and puts one on the defense, which is not condusive to hacking out ideas and seeing what we can do.

Thirdly, please make suggestions as to how this can work. It is much more constructive. The goal here is not to see what we cannot do; it is how we can do it.

Fourth, I never said the current owners of EBT are "evil." I have alluded to the fact that with another owner who is much more pro-marketing sans Disney-fying, the EBT would be a more viable tourist destanation. Now, onto the questions.

Otto Vondrak wrote:So the "Evil" Kovalchiks would retain ownership? Okay... why would they want you telling them what to do with the property they own again?

Why would I be telling them what to do with their property? Rude and out of line...if one chooses to interpret it that way (everything in life is an interpretation). Now, what businessman would not want to make more money and watch their business grow? Plus, let's not interpret this as one telling the other what to do. It is making suggestions how to grow the business in a way that is beneficial to the owner and the consumer (consumer being passengers, freight, towns the RR passes through, etc). The Kolvachicks could restore more of the line, but work with the communities they line serves. The communities could aid EBT in upkeep of the line, and the towns would prosper (bring people, business). No doubt Silverton, CO would have much less tourist activity if the train did not go through it.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:Then outline a, say, 10-year plan, and what I am thinking of doing.

Outline it here. Saying you're going to make a plan and actually having one are not the same thing.

I am not a businessman. We would need someone business savvy, plus railroad savvy to work with us to establish a doable plan that also agrees with the Kolvachiks (did I mention this willput more $$$ in their pocket?)

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:Establish ways EBT can earn profits by maintaining its original flavour without Disney-fying it;

Great, what are those ways? Establish them here, please.

Dinner trains, rent the line out to parties, businessmen; lease the equipment for displays, put the word out to filmmakers that the EBT is ready for its closeup (D&G cannot hog all the attention. To manage the $$$, bring in Joe Account for this one. I am not a numbers guy.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:how the EBT can be a viable frieght line as well, despite it being narrow gauge and incompatible with the outside network. Need to find a potential pool of clients that could use the rail service,

I'd really be curious how you'd attempt this. First of all, I think this has been explored. If there were customers located along the line demanding service, that would be one thing. But there's not. And you're going to have a hard time convincing customers to relocate to a line with no outside connection to the national rail network. Transloading at Mount Union doesn't count.

By removing transloading at Mount Union, then is creates something of a barrier. This might be two-fold. There are portions of the line that are dual gauge if memory serves. If freight has real potential, dual gauge the line. If the owners outright refuse to dual gauge, forget it. If they want to ruin the EBT like a "real railroad," the real narrow gauges either converted, dual gauged, or dissapeared. If they want to grow and prosper, dualing would be a major asset.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:I would also establish a relationship with FEBT, as they are a wealth of information and detail. If they are interested, recruit them in this effort.

I'm sure any effort to maintain the railroad would include the FEBT.

I am sure the FEBT would look forward to route expansion, so we would want them to be front and center.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:Then look for funding from the Commonwealth, as they give money to short lines on a yearly basis.

I don't think EBT is considered a shortline eligible for state funds. As far as the FRA is concerned, the EBT is "insular" from the national network, by fact that its tracks are only used to haul tourists. What's more, there's no practical interchange. You may be able to apply for things like Heritage Grants or things of that nature, but the grant-writing process is a long and twisting road.

Very true, and to grow the EBT, that is a road we will have to take. Plus, by explaining that the mission statement is to not make EBT "insular" from the national network, we may be able to qualify for state funds. There is always a loophole, and that is where a lawyer comes in, one who specializes in railway law.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:I would also establish a "Buy a Tie" program to help with restoring the line, with promise to the buyer that his/her name will be mentioned in some way (signs along the ROW, plaques at stations, etc).

That's a great fundraiser, it's worked at other places. Unfortunately, because the EBT is a for-profit company, donors would not be able to write off their donations to the Buy-a-Tie program (which is usually a big incentive).

This would require some discussing with the Kolvachiks. By changing the status of EBT to a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation, people would be able to write off their donations. Just because the EBT is has officially stated they are not for profit does not mean they cannot make a profit . Heck, the YMCA of Long Island is officially non-profit, and their Management staff makes well over six figures.[/quote]

Otto Vondrak wrote:Look, it's clear you have some ideas, it's clear you think the EBT should be doing more than it already is... but as it stands, you currently do not have a viable business plan. If you had a legitimate business plan for us to discuss, you might actually attract the attention of some investors. Your business plan cannot simply be, "Make EBT the best railroad in the region."

Again, I am not a business person, so you will not get a legitimate business plan out of me. i have ideas, and there is a market there. The question is involving the right people to make this work. If that means recruiting business people, lawyers, marketers, etc., so be it.

-otto-[/quote]

Perhaps a phone call to Rahm Israel Emanuel suggesting a 'take-over'???

Pacobell73 wrote:Ok, now for the dumbest question of the century:
- approx 33 miles of intact narrow gauge mainline
- 5 miles in service
- expansion...hmmm

I know the East Broad Top suffers from chronic money shortages and every couple of years, we hear about how "this might be EBT's last year."

Now, some other points:
- it is registered as a National Historic Landmark
- it is considered the most intact narrow gauge railroad in the country, beating out the great Durango and Silverton
- it is the only active narrow gauge RR east of the Mississippi.
- it still has most of its original rolling stock
- it is, essentially, a one-of-a-kind

And after nearly 50 years of tourist operation, it still only operates on 5 of its 33 miles of intact trackage.

Why in the world has this rolling museum never had the ability to expand and resurrect its out-of-service trackage? The Adirondack Scenic has been gradually restoring their longer main line, with regular state assistance. Steamtown had loads of funding to make it a reality.

And East Broad Top continues to struggle? Why has no one gotten the state to give it dedicated funding like Adirondack Scenic? Why has the EBT not made it a goal each year to slowly but surely restore its trackage? Why hasn't the Commonwealth worked to make EBT the east's answer to the Durango and Silverton. 50 year original freight cars, rotting away.

EBT is not your average tourist railroad by any means. What am I missing here? I would tbink the Commonwealth would aim to make EBT its othe crown jewel, next to the RR Museum of PA and Steamtown.

Thoughts, please.

Pacobell, the only reason I'm addressing you personally is that you're the one who initiated the conversation wanting to know why they haven done more to expand the route or grow the business. You seem to have ideas on how to accomplish your goal of expanding the route and growing the business, so I only asked you to explain how you intended to do this. I think we've done our best to explain the realities of the situation.

Pacobell73 wrote:[Thirdly, please make suggestions as to how this can work. It is much more constructive. The goal here is not to see what we cannot do; it is how we can do it.

That's what I was asking of you. We've already explained the reality of the situation. Many of the things you want to do would require mass amounts of money to accomplish and are simply unrealistic at this point in time. We've tried to explain this. Unfortunately, most of what you suggest falls under the "cannot do" list, no matter how much you disagree.

-otto-

If they are selling it as has been said, how much do they want for the EBT???

kalvingp30fan wrote:If they are selling it as has been said, how much do they want for the EBT???

Give 'em a shout and see what they're asking...

http://kovalchickcorp.com/contactus.html

Thanx for the putting the Kolvachik website up there. Did not know they were heavily into the railroad scrap business (I thought it was more along the lines of car scrap and metal and they just happened to buy the EBT when it was up for sale). They have quite a stash of railway ties, rails, spikes, frogs, etc.
http://kovalchickcorp.com/railaccesories.html

Hmmm...would be great to see some of that put into rehabbing the EBT...

Just a thought...

Pacobell73 wrote:Hmmm...would be great to see some of that put into rehabbing the EBT...

Just a thought...

The operating section gets periodic maintenance as needed to keep the railroad in top condition for hauling passengers... which section did you want to rehab?

Otto Vondrak wrote:The operating section gets periodic maintenance as needed to keep the railroad in top condition for hauling passengers...

I would hope so.

Otto Vondrak wrote:...which section did you want to rehab?

Let's start with the first 1/4 mile north of the current end of operable track.


Concerning the "Buy a Tie" issue, there is another way around the "for profit" issue:

Pacobell73 wrote:I would also establish a "Buy a Tie" program to help with restoring the line, with promise to the buyer that his/her name will be mentioned in some way (signs along the ROW, plaques at stations, etc).

Otto Vondrak wrote:That's a great fundraiser, it's worked at other places. Unfortunately, because the EBT is a for-profit company, donors would not be able to write off their donations to the Buy-a-Tie program (which is usually a big incentive).

Pacobell73 wrote:This would require some discussing with the Kolvachiks. By changing the status of EBT to a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation, people would be able to write off their donations. Just because the EBT is has officially stated they are not for profit does not mean they cannot make a profit . Heck, the YMCA of Long Island is officially non-profit, and their Management staff makes well over six figures.

FEBT is non-profit. People can donate to the FEBT write off their donations to the Buy-a-Tie program.
http://www.febt.org/donate.html#b

The Mount Union Connecting RR was formed years ago in the hope of providing standard-gauge freight service to the business park in Mount Union (the only 'town' of any considerable size to the EBT). They were going to expand the dual gauge to serve it. Never happened. I think the only rail service ever performed was a boxcar of lumber or 2 were unloaded at a dock at the interchange - spotted by local NS crews. Apparently there just is no demand for rail service. Yes they could standard or dual gauge the whole RR, but then it wouldn't be the historic EBT anymore. It will be just another little RR lost in the woods, and I doubt they could ever generate the business needed to pay for that upgrade.

Not too many people are going to want to have a party on a 10 mph, slow, narrow gauge, out in the middle of nowhere train. Even to upgrade the track to Mt. Union would be millions. There are bridges, lots of public road crossings, and places where I'm sure the neighboring property owners have encroached on the ROW and aren't going to leave without a legal fight.

It's a good dream, but considering the rail museum in altoona (not that far away) is suffering, I just don't see it happening. Location is everything. And there's nothing special about the EBT's location. It's in the woods - just like 90% of the rest of the state. Look at the knox and kane. Once the bridge fell, it was over. No one wants to take a long, expensive train ride in the woods to see nothing.

gp80mac, I am afraid you are right.

One thing most tourist RRs have going for them is location. Either a museum, busy town, amusement park, what have you. EBT really suffers from isolation. I recall going to Falling Water near Ohiopyle, PA. Aside from Falling Water, nothing except a nearby trail. There are not even decent public parks near EBT. Looking at the map of the Orbisonia and its surrounding area, EBT really is THE de factor tourist attraction. Shame...

The only thing EBT is close to is Raystown Lake (http://www.raystownlake.com/). Somehow I doubt people spending days sitting on the edge of a lake, boating, or camping are going ot be too interested in a 40 minute slow train ride in the woods.

Pacobell73 wrote:Heck, the YMCA of Long Island is officially non-profit, and their Management staff makes well over six figures.

Maybe management is siphoning off the leftover cash (as salary expenses) so they can continue to qualify as a non-profit organization.

Red Arrow Fan wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:Heck, the YMCA of Long Island is officially non-profit, and their Management staff makes well over six figures.

Maybe management is siphoning off the leftover cash (as salary expenses) so they can continue to qualify as a non-profit organization.

I would not put it past them - corporate world...

I visit here and do alot of reading , I don`t post very much so here goes; Leave EBT as it is. If you try to make it bigger it will become a tourist trap. As much as I like Strasburg RR , it is a tourist trap! I love EBT and would hate to see it change. As to Pacobell maybe since you feel so strong about all this and you want to change it , buy the EBT!