The 470 Railroad Club (Equipment and Activities)

Reader#108 wrote:Hmmmm.......I think I like the idea of dropping the Diesel into the tender. Are there any other examples of this operation in service right now?

There was at one point a museum (in the mid west I think....not pos, I'll have to try to find it again) that had done this. They put a mechanical drive set up in the tender and the locomotive was free wheeling. I seem to remember that they had modified the trucks in the tender with spur gears to accept the muti chain drive and wired all of the control to some sort of modified control stand in the cab. All of the compressors and everything fit into the tender. The best way to think of it would be like a very compressed B unit stuffed into a tender. I can't remember how they linked the transmitions and everything into the cab, but everything was run from the cab.

So long story short, yes there are examples of this, but I'll have to call around and try to remember where it was at.

You could accomplish this objective pretty convincingly and without very many alterations to the locomotive, by placing a fake tank superstructure on the deck of an EMD switcher "calf" and running it from the cab of the steam locomotive with a remote "Diesel box" like some of the larger steam locomotives use. It would really only the need sides and partial ends with a walkway in the middle. A calf could be made into a pretty decent looking auxiliary tender, removing any need to displace or change anything on the existing steam locomotive tender.

MX

I like that idea even better! Doesn't cut up or into the tender....but still would rather see her move under her own power.

Years ago, the Stone Mountain Railroad had something like this. They had a diesel "booster" behind the locomotive disguised as a baggage car.

I don't know of any "calf" units available on the used market at the moment. Come to think of it, I haven't seen one for sale for several years. Might be difficult finding one. You'd probably have better luck buying a GE 70-tonner (there are several available for sale right now) and lopping off the cab.

I have to wonder: how many steam fans would actually buy tickets to ride behind a diesel-powered "dummy" steamer? Most steam fans seem to be real purists when it comes to motive power.

Considering that it would probably cost a minimum of $100,000 to do this conversion (and that's with volunteer labor), is that something that 470 can even afford?

I know it's fun to fantasize, but let's try to keep the conversation at least partially grounded in reality.

MEC407 wrote:I don't know of any "calf" units available on the used market at the moment. Come to think of it, I haven't seen one for sale for several years. Might be difficult finding one. You'd probably have better luck buying a GE 70-tonner (there are several available for sale right now) and lopping off the cab.

I have to wonder: how many steam fans would actually buy tickets to ride behind a diesel-powered "dummy" steamer? Most steam fans seem to be real purists when it comes to motive power.

Considering that it would probably cost a minimum of $100,000 to do this conversion (and that's with volunteer labor), is that something that 470 can even afford?

I know it's fun to fantasize, but let's try to keep the conversation at least partially grounded in reality.

Seriously, 407 makes a really GREAT point here.
All you guys who have been criticizing the heck out of the 470 Club for NOT returning the 501 to full steam and berating them on the subject of diesels...
...if ANY of you are seriously suggesting the 470 Club spend a RED CENT on "dieselizing" the 501, then SHAME on you all!
It's not abut "steam vs. diesel," but think where the cash for getting a "donor diesel" to "power" the 501 would have to come from, and think where it COULD be better used in furthering preserving 501!
I agree the machine should be preserved, but just to see it roll with a diesel inside or just behind it? COME ON! Especially when it means BUYING another diesel just to gussy up to push it. You could just s easily put one of the existing diesels behind it, or better yet, when the F-7's are finished, you can shove it around with them to your hearts content without spending more.
Instead, why not use that [at this point hypothetical] money to put a ROOF over the 501?
JUST because it's a steam locomotive does not mean it HAS to be run! It can be well preserved and made attractive and accessible WITHOUT putting it under steam. A roof could be put over it, all it's parts restored and even it's jacket replaced, all in such a way that would not hinder future restorations. And hey, guess what? You won't DAMAGE the bearings and cylinders by trying to move it without the lubricators functioning... just so a few FOAMERS can get a picture or two of it somewhere in the Notch!
Instead of wasting gigabytes on how to make a dead engine into a zombie, how about we discuss things like where the machine MIGHT bee able to be displayed under a roof, and how 470 MIGHT be able to afford to build said roof?
Like I said, this has nothing to do with steam vs diesel. I'll be VERY happy to see the pair of B&M F's running anywhere together.I'd LOVE to see 501 get steamed someday. But to, on the one hand, criticize for REPLACING a diesel's prime mover (and all the money spent there,) and then, in almost the same breath, suggest throwing money into "dieselizing" the 501???? PLEASE!

Cosmo wrote: Seriously, 407 makes a really GREAT point here. All you guys who have been criticizing the heck out of the 470 Club for NOT returning the 501 to full steam and berating them on the subject of diesels...if ANY of you are seriously suggesting the 470 Club spend a RED CENT on "dieselizing" the 501, then SHAME on you all!

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm about a seriouse about that being a question that can and should be answered, as we did...open for discussion, but viable? No. It's just about as viable as Frankinengine.....but that is happening. See the point?

Cosmo wrote:It's not abut "steam vs. diesel," but think where the cash for getting a "donor diesel" to "power" the 501 would have to come from, and think where it COULD be better used in furthering preserving 501!.........

I can tell you right now where the cash is....being put into the start of Frankinengine. Lets look at that little cluster for a moment.....

We will probobly not been told what exactly has been spent so far, but a little bit of deduction will go a long way. Lets say for giggles that the "donor" was purchased at scrap value. We all know it was more than that, but at least scrap.... So we guestimate the scrap value being (as of today) 346 per ton of mixed steel being around $13,000.00. Then you have to move it. The move I will guess is no less than $3,000 - $5,000. (Pan Am alone charges $2,059 a unit not including fuel surcharge). It's gotta go over 5 different railroads (including CSRX) to get there. So our guess is now at $16,000 - $18,000. Now, it's at CSRX they have to Lift the body off both units....swing truck sets out....prime mover swap....send the truck sets out to get re-done (in the ball park of $800- $1,000 per wheel set for power axils). So figure trucking, the crain, and no labor costs we're into it for $19,200 - $22,000. Now we have to get the crain back, lift it again, roll the truck sets back in with the new (or scavenged) traction motors back in, at some point close the Frankinengine back up, do all of the wiring, redo the cab, put in the new appliances in it, any body and frame work for the new mount, prep the engine for paint, paint it, get it blue carded, inspect it, and then hope that CSRX will actually use it as more than a rescue engine. So lets say that still without labor for everything above we add another $15,000 - $30,000 depending on what they may be able to get used. Now we're at $34,000 - $52,000.

$52,000....and I think that will end up being on the low side. And they don't have any money to do anything with 501. As one of my favorite characters used to say...BUFFALO BISCUTS!!!!! (R.I.P. Col. Potter)
Why do WE have to find them money to stabilize 501 or put a roof over it Cosmo? WE can discuss it all we want, but they WILL NOT put another cent into 501, even though they have tens of thousands of dollars worth of parts sitting the rusting. We don't need to find them a cent....THEY've had it all along.

steamer69 wrote: Why do WE have to find them money to stabilize 501 or put a roof over it Cosmo?

Because you're doing all the talking.
Hello money, meet MOUTH!

WE can discuss it all we want, but they WILL NOT put another cent into 501, even though they have tens of thousands of dollars worth of parts sitting the rusting. We don't need to find them a cent....THEY've had it all along.

You know that for an absolute fact, do ya? Ok, well then, I guess that means you're privy to the 470's books and have already joined, paid dues, tried for trusteeship, submitted written proposals, including cost estimates, and had them brought up for vote... etc, etc....

"NOPE!" -Chuck Testa.

Cosmo wrote:Because you're doing all the talking.

You're right Cosmo....I'm also Reader#108, and MEC407. You figured it out....I'm pegged. The three of me will have to get different screen names now.

Cosmo wrote:You know that for an absolute fact, do ya?

Actions speak louder than words Pete, and thier actions are doing all the talking aren't they.......but no, I don't know that for an absolute fact. In the preservation world there is never an absolute fact.

Would it be extremely costly to prepare 501 for "rolling duty".? 501 does not have any pistons....so cylinder wear will not be a problem. I think the major area of concern would be restoring the braking system. Everything needed to achieve this type of operation would be needed if it were to run under her own power again anyways. With a limited investment, 501 could be left on display for most of te year, but she would be ready to roll like the freight cars on rfwknd. I think the hope is that once people see her out on the rails again, interest in restoring her to steam could blossom. I'd love to see the f7s pull the 470 excursion with 501 trailing behind as fake helper!

Hmmm.....how about an engine from a 44 Tonner?

Would one of those work? If so, take the prime mover out of NH360.

Now, here is a question for all....

Would you rather see a steam locomotive ride the rails or would you rather see it

sit and rot? These "Purists" will also point out that technically the 7470 didn't make it all

the way to Hazens because there was a Hopper at the end of the run. FOO-EY.

If she can ride the rails, under essential what is her own power whether it be via steam

or as a hybrid.....maybe it can be an advancement that will save steam locomotives

and allow them to run the rails instead of rotting in a park like this threads namesake

44 tonners have 2 engines. Less than 200 hp each. At 380 hp, a 44 tonner could, at best , move 4 or 5 cars at a time,
as long st there was no substantail grade. I think one engine from a 44T would barely move 501 itself, let alone any
cars, very far from N Conway. Certainly wouldn't make the hill east of the station, nor over Attitash.

Now this is starting to degenerate again.....

A "rolling restoration" will still involve 470 putting money into her, which they are now going to claim they don't have because of Frankinengine. But, A rolling restoration can be done for I would guess a few thousands dollars. It would involve doing all the bearings, babbits, oil cellars....etc. Checking wheels and such without writing a LONG explanation of everything that has to be done. J. David Conrad did an assessment for the town of Hartford on 494 for a rolling restoration. It's a good way to get the engine out of the rust spots it's in now.

Yet again though Reader, have to convince the "ANTI 501" club to do something with that idea, or even to let you work on it.

44 tonner engines are CAT D-17000's. Parts for them are getting tougher and tougher to get, understandably being a half century old. For their size they put out very little power. I've run Aroostook Valley #12 in Vermont and it'll handle several cars on flat terrain, but that's it. The #380 at CSR is owned by the state and is for sale. Both prime movers have problems.
It would be nice to see the 501 roll however is still comes down to money, always does. I'd rather see and hear 2 B&M F7's running that can easily be temporarily lettered and numbered for Maine Central than a dead engine roll by. For all those who want to put 501 under cover contact and join 470 Club, then write out checks to pay for a shelter for the engine. I am sure that money would be welcomed. It's easy to talk about what to do, but tough to write checks for it, especially in these tough times!
Perhaps the 501 could reside in the Bartlett Roundhouse some day, but again somebody would have to donate the money to make it happen.

It is clear many of you have not spent a significant amount of time around steam locomotives. Yes, some of the "romance" is seeing the rods go round and round but even more is the sights and sounds one produces, especially when working hard. Cosmo, I'm sure, will agree with me whole heartedly given his experience at the VRR. As for Frakenengine (or whatever we are calling it), kudos to the the 470 club. A matched pair of operational B&M F7s is an incredible sight. The only thing better for me would be a matched pair of New Haven FA1s, which is not out of the realm of possibilities!