Subway Surface- top speeds and cab signals

Can somone explain the subway portion of the subway surface lines to me? Everytime I try to pick up a trolley at 36th st between 10:20PM and 11:20PM the blue light is blinking. All I see on the shedule is a note that on Mondays Night Owl trolleys do not operate in the subway. What am I missing? How late is night owl anyway?

Also, kind of related. How fast do those trolleys go in the subway. Seems pretty fast to me.

flynnt wrote:Can somone explain the subway portion of the subway surface lines to me? Everytime I try to pick up a trolley at 36th st between 10:20PM and 11:20PM the blue light is blinking. All I see on the shedule is a note that on Mondays Night Owl trolleys do not operate in the subway. What am I missing? How late is night owl anyway?

Also, kind of related. How fast do those trolleys go in the subway. Seems pretty fast to me.

To answer your first question...

Through out the summer they will be doing signal work on the subway convert it over to CBTC operation (which was supposed to be finished in June) and that is Monday through Fridays from 10PM through Nite Owl service.

As far as speeds are concerned, I've seen cars go as fast as 50 in open stretches. If you've never rode a fantrip charter in the hole you're really missing out on a nice treat. I've been on cars doing 65 and 70 on the portion between 30th and 15th Sts.

Eric

Thanks for the info. You would think they have it posted on the website somewhere, but I cant find it.


what is CCTC operation?

flynnt wrote:Thanks for the info. You would think they have it posted on the website somewhere, but I cant find it.


what is CCTC operation?

CBTC stands for Communications Based Train Control which is a fancier more advanced form of ATC (Automatic Train Control) already used by the El and the P&W. It impliments the useage of cab signals to control traffic.

SEPTALRV9072 wrote:CBTC stands for Communications Based Train Control which is a fancier more advanced form of ATC (Automatic Train Control) already used by the El and the P&W. It implements the usage of cab signals to control traffic.

Allow me to elaborate on the "communications-based" part, because that's a key difference between it and conventional signal systems. Instead of having fixed blocks like the present system does, the CBTC continuously measures each car's position, determines how close it is to the preceding car, and gives a cab signal indication that provides sufficient protection (with ATC backup). The big advantage of not having fixed blocks is that train capacity is increased. There is also a potential speed gain because you don't have to wait for the fixed block ahead to clear in order to go at full speed.

Obviously I've oversimplified things, but CBTC is a good thing. BTW, SEPTA is getting this system in settlement of the dispute over the late and overweight delivery of the M-4 Market-Frankford cars.

When will signal work be done? It seems to be taking forever!

Also, I sometimes worry that the new signals will slow the trolleys -- any thoughts? After all, the often stop before entering station areas, even when it is clear that nothing is on the tracks ahead.

adamkrom wrote:When will signal work be done? It seems to be taking forever!

Also, I sometimes worry that the new signals will slow the trolleys -- any thoughts? After all, the often stop before entering station areas, even when it is clear that nothing is on the tracks ahead.

They implemented that practice in the mid '90s after a huge rash of rear-enders in the subway. So now cars have to do a stop and go before entering the station area.

The LRVs are governed around 46-48 mph. The MAS in the tunnel is 35 MPH. It's not possible for one to go 65-70.

Also, there are only three stations on the e/b side that mandate a stop before proceeding into the station regardless of track occupancy.

RunDriver wrote:The LRVs are governed around 46-48 mph. The MAS in the tunnel is 35 MPH. It's not possible for one to go 65-70.

I was reffering to the old PCCs.

SEPTALRV9072 wrote:

RunDriver wrote:The LRVs are governed around 46-48 mph. The MAS in the tunnel is 35 MPH. It's not possible for one to go 65-70.

I was reffering to the old PCCs.

I thought the PCCs couldn't go into the tunnel. Clearance & signal issues.

Umblehoon wrote:

SEPTALRV9072 wrote:

RunDriver wrote:The LRVs are governed around 46-48 mph. The MAS in the tunnel is 35 MPH. It's not possible for one to go 65-70.

I was reffering to the old PCCs.

I thought the PCCs couldn't go into the tunnel. Clearance & signal issues.

They've been going in the tunnel since 1955. They were banned when the cab signals were introduced.

Actually, PCC's were in the tunnel before 1955. Prior to 1955, and the extension of the trolley subway to its present two portals, the subway began just east of 23rd & Market. Though the bulk of service on the then subway surface routes 10, 11, 31, 34, 37 & 38 was provided by the 1923-26 8,000 series conventional cars, Routes 10 & 38, which operated out of Callowhill Depot ( along with the all PCC Route 15) employed a mixture of 8,000's and PCC's. PCC's didn't come to the Woodland Depot based Routes until after the extension opened, and the "great NCL bustitution" permitted the 8,000's to be retired and scrapped, though Route 13 ( along with Route 42) which at this time was an all surface route using Chestnut and Walnut Streets, with its eastern terminus being Front & Chestnut, was all air-electric PCC equipped prior to this time. This was also the time when the current subway surface route "roster" ( 10,11,13,34 & 36) came into being, with the diverted 13 replacing the bustituted 38, and the rerouted 36 replacing the bustituted 37. Route 31 was also bustituted, but was not directly replaced in the subway. From this time until the mid 1960's, the subway surface lines employed exclusively the pre-war air-electric PCC's. The All Electric versions came to the "hole" in the late 1960's.

SEPTALRV9072 wrote:

RunDriver wrote:The LRVs are governed around 46-48 mph. The MAS in the tunnel is 35 MPH. It's not possible for one to go 65-70.

I was reffering to the old PCCs.

I don't believe the PCC's had speedometers on them. I surely don't think one could reach speeds of 65-70 MPH. The close clearances in the tunnel may give the impression that you're traveling at an extreme rate of speed but the car is not really moving that fast. The PCC's used to give the old Budd cars a good race between 30th and 15th and the Budds could only get up to about 50 although there was no speedometer on those either.

Did they have speed limits at that time? If so, how were they enforced/checked?

I can't speak for SEPTA's operations exactly, but I'm fairly certain that in NYC, Chicago, and other places I believe that speed enforcement on curves and such was done with a signal timer. The timer was set so that it would clear only when it took an amount of time greater than the time needed to travel the length of track at a set speed. If the timer was set for 25mph or 36.667 ft/s and the timer section was 200 feet long then you'd better spend more than 5.45 seconds in the section or your tripcock would be triggered and the train would go BIE. I've heard some stories from folks who drove trains in the B.S (Before Speedometer) period and it sounds like during the first week or so of operation on a line you pretty much played it safe and ran slow or just accepted the BIEs and tried to go fast. Over time the operators would learn how to gauge their speed at the various timers and likely over other parts of the route without speed enforcement.

I thought the PCCs couldn't go into the tunnel. Clearance & signal issues.

I apologize for the thirdhand information, but I believe I heard yesterday on a railfan trip that one of the participants had been told by a SEPTA higher-up in the Engineering dept that there is no physical reason the PCC IIs cannot run in the tunnel. Of course the lack of CBTC compatibility makes their operation in the tunnel a very temporary proposition, and I'm not even quite sure why anyone would want them there. I suppose SEPTA is concerned that if people get word that the PCC IIs can be operated in the Subway Surface then there will be calls from disabled passengers for them to be operated at least on the Route 10. They may not have enough PCC IIs to operate both the 15 and some 10 runs during peak hours, but off-peak a few likely could be spared. With the cumbersome wheelchair lifts accomodating a wheelchair passenger in the Subway Surface potentially could delay several trolleys.