Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

"Bullcrap. Again, NS added trains to the D&H and actively pursued a partnership with Pan Am. Heck, they even added 4 intermodal freight and two auto rack trains between Buffalo and Binghamton. "

Again with the denial. Sorry Matt, but there are simply fewer trains on the D&H than there were a few years back. I'm not making that up. Don't say bullcrap just because something doesn't fit your alternate reality utopian vision. Believe me, if there were more trains or more traffic I'd be more than happy to tell you and anyone else that it was so! It just isn't so.

ENOUGH. Believe whatever you wish, but please don't try to convince everyone else that trains and traffic that don't exist are moving, and the rest of us just can't see them. Perhaps compared with a year ago or a few months back NS has made some small improvements, but compared with 5 or 10 or 20 years ago, there is simply no room to even debate the subject.

oibu wrote:"Bullcrap. Again, NS added trains to the D&H and actively pursued a partnership with Pan Am. Heck, they even added 4 intermodal freight and two auto rack trains between Buffalo and Binghamton. "

Again with the denial. Sorry Matt, but there are simply fewer trains on the D&H than there were a few years back. I'm not making that up.

Yes, you are. First, you admit that you are a visitor to NY. I have lived here my entire life. Who should the readers trust? Someone who lives here and spends time trackside regularly or an outsider who can't even report an accurate hourly train count? Hmmmm....

Second, NS did add 22K, 23K, 28N, 287, 66N and 67N to the Tier and the D&H within the past 10 years. In fact, the latter 4 were added within the last three years!

oibu wrote: Don't say bullcrap just because something doesn't fit your alternate reality utopian vision.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Not only is your train count for CSX in NY inaccurate, but your claim of declining NS traffic in PA is also a fallacy.

Not once did I ever claim NS is a utopia. Everyone here will agree that traffic levels of 2016 are not what they were 1976. On the other hand, your claims regarding CSX traffic levels are utopian.

oibu wrote:ENOUGH. Believe whatever you wish, but please don't try to convince everyone else that trains and traffic that don't exist are moving, and the rest of us just can't see them.

Who is us? Or everyone? Your arguments haven't gotten much support here, so the chances of you speaking for the other folks reading this aren't very good.

If you think you will silence me by saying enough, guess again! It's up to the moderators and administrators to shut down a conversation, so your feeble attempt at netcopping won't work. I know what I've seen in recent years, and refuse to be intimidated by someone who isn't here on a regular basis.

I spend lots of time on both the Tier and D&H and have for about 25 years. So you are totally wrong there.

Don't try to tell me how many trains I see on either the Chicago, TIer, or D&H. That's actually kind of pathological, like me trying to convince you that you ate something for breakfast today that you didn't eat.

And pretty much everyone here (but you) agrees with what I've said about traffic on the Tier and D&H, or with the relative dearth of traffic these days. Not sure who besides you is saying anything significantly otherwise, other than to pick a few minor nits about whether there are 8 trains today or 9, or whether in 1996 there where 14 trains but in 1998 there were 15, or whatever.

You keep going on and on ad nauseum about all the trains NS has "added", but they are nearly all just resymbols, or replacements for (a portion of the) former CP trains. They are not literally "new" or "additional" trains or "new traffic" other than the pair of rack trains. There are however several other "old" trains that no longer run and whose "old" traffic has not been replaced. And if you look at what NS said they would do with the tier in 1999, or more recently, almost none of it has actually happened. That's not my opinion, it's a simple truth that almost none of the 10 or 12 trains NS wrote "schedules" for in 1999 have ever existed.

Can't spell it out any more clearly. Nothing more to say. Let's just talk about things that actually are happening, whatever they may be, and leave personal feelings for or against NS out of it. If you want to love NS, go right ahead, but just don't try to tell me they are moving traffic that doesn't actually move, or that 8 or 10 trains a day now is actually "more" than 14 or 15 trains (is that the "new math"?), or whatever.

Moving on...

Pathological? Maybe you should look in the mirror! I know what I have seen on the Tier, which I have been watching for 43 years. (And I don't see this magic "everyone" you talk about supporting your talking points.)

First of all, 22K and 23K are not resymbols of any CP trains. They actually existed before the CR-split. NS merely extended them eastward when they began doing business with Pan Am. Likewise, 66N and 67N are brand new trains representing a new venture with the P&W. Again, CP had nothing to do with them. As for 28N and 287, they run to Ayer becuase they are also a join venture with Pam Am. They aren't rehashed CP symbols.

Meanwhile, the WNYP leased and reactivated a line that CR basically left for dead... and even fought to disconnect.

You also make a reference to old CP symbols that don't run any more. As I have said numerous times, the traffic from 38T and 39T was added to other trains. That's not fiction! NS extended 309 and 310 because they could handle the tonnage from 38T and 39T.

Finally, this isn't about a blind loyalty to NS. They do make mistakes (as attested by a current and employees I know) but I do I feel the Tier is in safe hands. Now that I've said that, perhaps you should take off the rose colored glasses regarding CSX's supposed 3 trains per hour.

There was "always" (back to early-mid 90s) an intermodal pair on D&H/Guilford. The fact that NS took it over does not equate to NS "adding" those trains. Yes, there are a few trains (racks, P&W interchange) NS has created. But they only PARTIALLY offset what has been lost. That is all. Take away 8 of 12 trains, add 4, you still get 4 fewer trains by any method of calculation.

What does WNYP have to do with NS? If anything, NS has basically screwed WNYP over and also basically wasted still more NYS money by not running trains on it and refusing to interchange like they used to. That line wasn't rebuilt just to move 2 cars 2 or 3 days a week between Olean and Hornell. If it were up to NS, the Meadville Line and Buffalo line would probably both be closed. Surely NS isn't going out of their way in that regard and is anything but a "white knight" in that region!

Wrong again. There are 10 symbols on the Tier now, not 8. You also keep repeating the fallacy that symbols are the same thing as tonnage. They are not synonymous at all. I watched the rack trains grow. They used to be part of NS 205 and 206 but the racks regularly became extra sections (I05 and I06) until NS pulled the trigger by extending 14T 9now 28N) and 287 past Buffalo. As far as 22K and 23K they replaced nothing. If you can show me the symbols of the supposed CP trains that immediately preceded them, post them here. I don't thnk anyone reading this will be holding their breath, though.

Finally, NS didn't screw the WNYP. Without NS, the WNYP wouldn't even exist. Conrail completely resisted the idea of redeveloping the Southern Tier Extension, but NS agreed to let the LA&L (and other investors) redevelop the line. NS hasn't cut service to Hornell. WNYP chose to reduce the interchange at Hornell from 3 days per week to 1 day per week. That's better than the weed grown and washed out nightmare that existed west of Hornell 20 years ago, even without the coal trains.

For anyone looking to save time, here is a recap of the last two pages of material (a light hearted attempt to translate what is there into simpler language):

Party A: The Southern Tier is busier.
Party B: No, it isn't.
Party A: Liar!
Party B: Charlatan!

And that about sums it all up. Save yourself the time.

Lol how does any of this have anything to do with the Southern Tier-East of Binghamton?

On the bright side it is nice to see arguements other than:

"I am a racist, loudmouth and I like walls!"

and

"I am a liar who did nothing wrong with my emails!"

Foamers gonna Foam

Lol how does any of this have anything to do with the Southern Tier-East of Binghamton?

LOL, yeah not much other than a few people still think the floodgates are going to open when Portage is done, while 17 years of practical experience and the lack of any initiative by NS to do anything at Portage without free State money for that entire duration until the State finally threw them some coin (even after already getting all sorts of tax reductions and exemptions from NYS and giving the east end to MNCR (ie., State of NY) to avoid taxes as it is), strongly suggest otherwise. But some may still see pies in the sky. YMMV.

[quote="Matt Langworthy As far as 22K and 23K they replaced nothing. If you can show me the symbols of the supposed CP trains that immediately preceded them, post them here. I don't thnk anyone reading this will be holding their breath, though.[/quote]

Just for closure, MOAY/AYMO on Guilford, CP/D&H symbols varied somewhat over time, IIRC they started as 261/262 and at various times were called 205/206, 268/269, 168/169, etc. Please do not try to tell anyone "there was no MOAY/AYMO" just because it tarnishes your vision of what NS has "accomplished". I'm so done with this silly game.


Let's talk about the east end of the Tier now.

Ahem... NS 22K and 23K are separate trains from NS 205 and 206. Hence your most recent argument, like most of your other talking points, is invalid.

Now, I do have a question about the eastern end of the Tier: how heavy is the commuter traffic (i.e. train count) east of Port Jervis?

Matt,

Just go to the NJTransit schedules and you'll find all the service on the Port Jervis line.

14 westbound and 13 eastbound on the schedule per day, meaning there is also one eastbound deadhead back to Hoboken. I believe when Conrail/NS used to run the occasional train over the east end, the passenger traffic was about half of what it is now.