Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

even in 10 years NS will no longer own Port Jervis to NJ state line and MN will need to agree on increase of freight slots

They own from Port Jervis to Suffern. All the detectors are NS ones. I believe the least to MN is 99 years, but i'm sure a few trains mixed in with a 2nd track to Harriman could work

yes lease with option to buy, which may be sooner than you think, MTA is not just for fun upgrading the line.

If they sell, then NS will absolutely never use the east end.

The lease to CNYK has nothing to do with NS operating over the line. They could run a train there tomorrow if they wanted to. They could also cancel the lease any time they want to but that would revert them back to paying tax and maintenance on the line and make it a lot harder to get state money. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

It also doesn't matter who operates east of Port Jervis. NS went out of it's way in the agreement to make sure there are no freight restrictions. They already don't own east of Suffern but operate there whenever they want. NJT can't legally stop them

They could run trains up and down the Delaware all day long if they want to. They just don't want to.

A lease is one thing SJ. To sell it completely speaks volumes. They obviously don't want the route. Sad that they don't want it and Conrail ran more trains over the line then these clowns ever will. Pathetic

northjerseybuff wrote:A lease is one thing SJ. To sell it completely speaks volumes. They obviously don't want the route. Sad that they don't want it and Conrail ran more trains over the line then these clowns ever will. Pathetic

Very true about Conrail using it more. But remember for the longest time, Conrail used this line for the double
stack trains when the River Line and the former Pennsy main (via Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and Allentown) weren't
able to be used for those, account of the lower clearances. Once those lines were able to take the stacks, Conrail
moved them off the Tier--around 1995 or so.

We STILL don't know what's going to transpire once the Bayonne bridge project is done. Once that's done, there
will be clearance of 215 feet from the water to the bottom of the bridge, allowing the larger freighters to Port of
Newark.

Remember all this work being done to the track isn't being done for the fun of it.

Charlie

Conrail was the one who sold the portion in NJ to NJT. Selling the line to MTA would just be an extension of that. They retain trackage rights for freights if they want to use it. They actually turned down a previous sale of the line to MTA when there was talk about limiting freights. Let's just say the amount of freight MTA was willing to run even in that deal would make us all thrilled.

charlie6017 wrote:

northjerseybuff wrote:A lease is one thing SJ. To sell it completely speaks volumes. They obviously don't want the route. Sad that they don't want it and Conrail ran more trains over the line then these clowns ever will. Pathetic

Very true about Conrail using it more. But remember for the longest time, Conrail used this line for the double
stack trains when the River Line and the former Pennsy main (via Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and Allentown) weren't
able to be used for those, account of the lower clearances. Once those lines were able to take the stacks, Conrail
moved them off the Tier--around 1995 or so.

Yep, I can remember those lean years when Tier just had BU0I/OIBU, a pair of TV stack trains, a couple of CP freights (which didn't run east on Bingo), a pair of Suzie Q stack trains and a few locals. That time period was kind of scary- I wondered if CR was going to pull the plug until the split happened. While I think NS values the western half of the Tier, I'm not sure where the east end fits into their plans. It would be a useful line if NS grew their traffic levels, but that isn't happening right now.

Matt Langworthy wrote:Yep, I can remember those lean years when Tier just had BU0I/OIBU, a pair of TV stack trains, a couple of CP freights (which didn't run east on Bingo), a pair of Suzie Q stack trains and a few locals. That time period was kind of scary- I wondered if CR was going to pull the plug until the split happened. While I think NS values the western half of the Tier, I'm not sure where the east end fits into their plans. It would be a useful line if NS grew their traffic levels, but that isn't happening right now.

I really wish I had the presence of mind to railfan more back in those late 80's to early 1990's years, but I had more
"pressing-issues" to tend to (read: girls). If I could only turn back time!

I'm really curious to see what happens once that bridge project is finally done. It's still gonna be a while, but those
of us who have been around a while and know our history--along with those who actually worked the railroads, know
how things can change. My gut tells me it could be a game-changer!

Charlie

In 2009 NS was starting to flesh out preliminary plans for a rail to ship grain terminal at Howland hook on Staten island. They informally approached NJ Transit inquiring if they could run two eastbound loaded grain trains and two westbound empty trains over the Raritan Valley Line. NJT said yes if they could run them between the hours of 10 pm and 5am. NS stated they would build west from NJT's end of track to the Lehigh Line connection on their dime.

An NJT higher up was tasked to host the NS officials from Harrisburg and NS Corporate on a Hy-rail trip over the RVL from Cranford NJ to end of track. As he was/is a good friend of mine I asked him if/when the shop talk climate was right to inquire about the Southern Tier from Port to Bingo. Those NS rebels are pretty cagey so we figured Croxton to Port was basically of interest to NJT and would get them to reveal their intentions. From the horses mouth," We know its there and it is a fit for our main terminal Croxton however to upgrade Port Jervis -Binghamton to OUR standards would require a new signal system, including highway crossing protection, new rail, new ties and ballast and Starrucca Viaduct needed about15 million dollars of upgrades. All of the other bridges probably needed replacing due to age and deterioration so were looking at 160 million dollars (2009) or more once we really get into it. They have lot of curves on that line and that also increases our track maintenance expenses."

They treat their operating people like machines but I give NS credit for knowing how to turn a buck and the bottom line is the bottom line with The Horse. Eventually they might start using the east end but I am sure they will get New York state to kick in some money and traffic volume profitability would have to meet their business model.

Well I guess fortunately for us since then, the signal system has been upgraded, bridge timbers replaced, ballast, ties and rail have been greatly upgraded. Is it a coincidence that all that stuff has taken place?

Not much they can do about the curves but NS isn't really paying the maintenance costs anyway.

Seems to me just a case of NS isn't stupid. They let it sit while the economy had traffic way down. They let CNYK and MNCR lease it so they wouldn't have the day to day costs and could get a tax break. They let CNYK ask for money for upgrades because the state etc. are more likely to give that money to a shortline/regional- especially one that's been working that same system for 30 years. They let MN do track and signal upgrades on their/NYS dime. They hedged bets on Portage bridge replacemnt until NYS came through with enough funding. Now that CNYK has upgraded signals west of Sparrow, MN has upgrade signals east of Sparrow, MN has upgraded track east of Sparrow, CNYK has upgraded track awest of Sparrow, several bridges have been re-decked or significantly rebuilt, Portage is being replaced, etc. What does that leave?

Sounds to me like a railroad in pretty good shape, mostly on someone else's dime. About all it needs to be on par with D&H or Lehigh Line etc. is some more CWR between Port and Binghamton.

Also, I almost think I heard scuttlebutt a while back about some work being done or in the works for Starrucca? I can't recall fore sure but I almost think so.

NS also wasn't stupid enough to let the fox mind the henhouse in the MNCR lease. Most talk there about not being able to run freight is either hogwash or MNCR/NJT wishful thinking.

Well everything that needed work has been worked on by CNY/NYSW, except Starrucca. What kind of work did that need?

I have no idea, but I wouldn't guess much more than repointing, maybe a few repairs in some specific spots, maybe some deck upgrade or replacement (the deck consists of big stone slabs spanning the gaps over the hollow interior of the bridge- it is not filled with stone in the middle; Erie did some major work and "weatherproofing" of the deck ca. 1950s- maybe after 60-70 years it actually needs some attention!)).

Structurally speaking, also keep in mind it was designed for 2 tracks and supported trains on 2 tracks for most of it's existence. Now it only has to support a train on one track. It's not quite that simple, but the point is structurally it should be quite sound, in the big picture. But any big bridge needs some periodic upkeep every few decades.