Good timing 7 Train, I’ve just been looking at East Coast MU’s and some old RRnet pages are right on my desk. A thread like this came up about Arrow II/IIIs a few years back and its answer fits the SIVs because all 3 of these body designs descend from the Arrow I. Now guess who started that Arrow thread! LOL
The Internet Archive’s copy of RRnet from before the last crash let me extract the text:
http://www.archive.org, search for
http://www.railroad.net, select Aug 05, 2003, then the New Jersey Transit forum, page 17, topic Arrow II/III builders. I removed the off topic posts.
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7 Train
I was wondering who the builders for the Arrow I/II/III
electric MU car are. I believe I read somewhere it was GE, but I have a strong feeling that it was Budd. Who actually built those cars?
Posted 11/6/2002 2:41:00 PM PST
ramcat
The original Jersey Arrows were built by St. Louis Car Co., St. Louis, MO, and delivered starting in 1968 for, I believe, a total of 34 cars. The later versions were built by General Electric in a new erecting facility in Erie, PA. The later versions were similar to the cars built for SEPTA by GE but did not have dynamic brake.
Posted 11/6/2002 3:06:00 PM PST
A-nonny-moose
The Shells for the II/III 's were built by Budd but assembly took place in Erieby GE.
same with the CDOT M2's built by GE.
Budd at that time was only Manufacturer in USA building Stainless steel shells.
these days all Stainless steel shels are made in Portugal or in Brasil by Marfesa.
the later manufactures the Shells for the Comet V which are shipped to Hornell for final assembly.
Posted 11/6/2002 4:39:00 PM PST
ramcat
The carbodies for the next Jersey Arrows and SEPTA were not built by Budd. They were fabricated by an aircraft manufacturer in Nashville, TN, and shipped to Erie on 89-foot flat cars.
There are also facilities in Japan that can and have fabricated stainless steel car bodies such as the South Shore cars and others. These are moved loaded on 89-foot flat cars to the final assembly plants from the Port of Entry.
Posted 11/6/2002 5:48:00 PM PST
Olog-Hai
So, what's the truth? By Budd, not by Budd. By "an aircraft manufacturer" is far too nebulous; certainly, my car was made by an "automobile manufacturer" but that tells you nothing about whom and where. Anyone have crystal-clear facts on this subject?
Posted 2/15/2003 5:45:00 PM PST
nasadowsk
The Arrow Is were St Louis Car, and Westinghouse equipped (Phase angle SCR control). The Arrow IIs were origionally GE, with GE's ignitron phase angle control system. The Arrow IIIs were GE, with GE's SCR phase angle control, then rebuilt by ABB into GTO AC traction unts in the early 90's, which is quite young, I supose the origional GE control system sucked, and I know the Arrow I's was hardly ideal, and probbably bug ridden like Westinghouse's Metroliner equipment was too.
Oddly, I think SEPTA still uses the origional propulsion equipment in all their stuff, but I can't get any word on if the ignitrons were ever swapped for SCRs like MN did on the M-2 cars.
Posted 2/15/2003 7:04:00 PM PST
railfanfdc
For what it's worth, I've seen the Arrow II/III cars refered to as Avco/GE cars, where it is understood that a company named Avco actually built the bodies. How correct this is I'm not sure. I have some plans for the cars, but, there is nothing on the plans to indicate who built them.
Posted 2/15/2003 7:30:00 PM PST
Jtgshu
I know its not really an answer to your question, but the FRA cards that each loco/cab car/MU must have state that the builder is GE.
Posted 2/16/2003 12:10:00 AM PST
Olton Hall
GE is listed as the builder / assembler of the Arrow II/III. Budd only constructed the stainless steel shell which is what we see. There is so much more that is not Budd such as the propulsion, interiors, HVAC, etc. Railcars are just like cars. Budd built fenders and doors for many automobiles such as the Ford Bronco but Ford is listed as the maker of the car even though what we saw going down the road was stamped out in a Budd factory.
Posted 2/16/2003 7:21:00 AM PST
scoot1
I have a strong recollection that some of the latter Arrow, possibly the III's have some link to one of the past Canadian car builders, possibly Hawker-Siddley. I may be wrong. Something like a Hawker-Siddley/GSI/GE joint venture.
Posted 2/17/2003 12:05:00 PM PST
scoot1
Follow-up to previous post:
Actually, I believe it was Canadian-Vickers or now known as just Vickers that built the cars under license from General Steel Industries ( GSI) -parent of St Louis car. The Arrows were St Louis/GSI products so its highly unlikely Budd had anything to do with them. Probably built by a Canadian-Vickers/GSI/GE consortium that may have been know as American Vickers hence the name AVCO.
Posted 2/17/2003 10:06:00 PM PST
Olton Hall
I've never seen any reference to Vickers being involved with the Arrows before. I know they built some of the Patco trains, (Budd built the others according the plaque on the doors) .
I think we'll never know the true answer to this question. With more snooping around, It seems that many sources refer to the Arrow II and III's as GE's with the body by Budd. And as Jtgshu has indicated the FRA card says GE. From a history of the Budd Company I found, they had new owners near the end of the time of the Arrow III contact and they started to quickly get out of the non-automobile buisness then. They could have got someone else to complete the contract for them.
Even the AEM-7's were a consortium of ASEA (the A) who supplied the design, boogies and major electrical items, EMD (the EM) who assembled them with Budd built bodyshells.
Posted 2/18/2003 6:47:00 PM PST
chuchubob
olton hall is correct about the PATCO cars. The original order of 75 cars was built by Budd: 101-125 and 201-250. Budd had left the business when the second order was built by Vickers of Canada using Budd's blueprints.
Posted 2/18/2003 7:05:00 PM PST
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Hope this helps, Bill
