Should SEPTA change the Subway-Surface Trolleys into........

Should SEPTA change the Subway-Surface Trolleys into alphabet designations??? I say this because SEPTA is not only the most confusing subway system in America, but it's bus and subway system is very complicated as well. You have certain letter designation such as the H, XH, the former C and J in North Phila, and you have numerical designations such as the 10, 11, the 13, the 34, and the 36 for the subway -surface system.

Since we only have 26 letters in the alphabet, I suggest moving the letter designations to the subway-surface system. Here's my example:

A - University City Loop: City Hall to 40th and Market via Lancaster and Baltimore Aves
B - City Hall to 61st St via Baltimore Ave
C - City Hall to Yeadon via Chester Ave
D - City Hall to Darby via Woodland Ave
E - City Hall to 80th St (Eastwick Loop) via Elmwood Ave

newer subway-surface routes:

L - City Hall to Overbrook Loop via Lancaster Ave
M - City Hall to Morris Park via Lancaster and Lansdowne Aves
P - City Hall to Bala Cynwyd via Parkside Ave and Lancaster Aves
W - City Hall to Darby via Whitby Ave
X - City Hall to Cobbs Creek Loop (63rd St) via Christian St

The numerical designations should be reserved for buses, trolleys that do use the City Hall Tunnel such as the 15 and the 23, and trackless trolleys. I also believe that SEPTA needs to adopt a numbering system for certain areas of the Greater Philadelphia area:

1-100: Philadelphia and environs
101-149: Delaware County and the Main Line (west of the Schuylkill River)
150-199: Montgomery County (east of the Schuylikll River)
200's: Bucks County
400's: school service

I believe streamlining the letter and numerical designation will make SEPTA an easier system to use for not only daily commuters, but for tourists and visitors as well. Boston and San Francisco has strictly letter designations for it's trolley system and number designations for it's buses, and I don't understand why Philly doesn't follow the same suit. If Philly had the letter designations for the subway-surface system, t would make the mass transit system less confusing than what it currently is already, so when you want to take route B or route C, then you already know that the B and the C are subway-surface trolley routes and not regular bus or trolley routes.

In terms of wayfinding, it's not a bad idea, though I hate the idea of emulating anything that Boston does. Another possibility is the way Toronto does it; all streetcars are 500 series routes.

1. I don't get the reference to the 15 and 23 as using City Hall Tunnel.
2. Following the absorption of Red Arrow into the former PTC system, there arose an immediate duplication of lettered bus routes of the two operations. SEPTA then set about a program of gradually converting the lettered City Division bus routes to numbers (A -> 9, 27, and 32; C -> 4, 16; D -> 21; E -> 65, using what I call the "retired jerseys" of long-vanished trolley routes), but it sort of petered out--maybe they lost interest, which is what it would take to inaugurate a wholesale renumbering program.

I think the trolley numbers are as fine as it is. If they did change from the numbers i would prefer it to be the end terminus line

10-Overbrook/Malvern Line
11-Darby Line
13-Yeadon Line (Select trips to Darby)
15-Callowhill/Port Richmond Line
34-Angora Line
36-Eastwick Line
101-Media Line
102-Sharon Hill Line

But i still think the number routes are still fine.

Yeah right, septa revamping the numbering and lettering of the routes? if septa decided to do this, they would first hire a consultant to invent a new alphabet. $100 million and 15 years later, you might have something new.

Seriously, the most confusing subway system in America? Are you kidding me? Dude, you can draw a map of the whole system on your hand.

If it were up to me I would restore 100-Norristown while we're at it; in the minds of unaccustomed riders there has to be confusion with the Line Formerly Known As R6-Norristown, particularly since they both go to the Norristown Transportation Center.

ExCon90 wrote:If it were up to me I would restore 100-Norristown while we're at it; in the minds of unaccustomed riders there has to be confusion with the Line Formerly Known As R6-Norristown, particularly since they both go to the Norristown Transportation Center.

HA! Were you on the same NHSL trip as I was today? On the way home a passenger looked up from his iThing, freaked, and ran to the front of the car demanding to know why we hadn't stopped at Conshohocken

But seriously, having multiple stations with the same names causes all sorts of confusion, abetted by people who erroneously continue to use the conflated "R100" name. When I was commuting more regularly I'd see a couple of mixed-up riders every week. The worst were those who would confidently put their paper RRD ticket in the farebox ... where it vanished forever.

No, I wasn't on board, but I had a vision. It was a lot simpler when people could simply say Pennsy or P&W.

ExCon90 wrote:No, I wasn't on board, but I had a vision. It was a lot simpler when people could simply say Pennsy or P&W.

It's also simple to specify 'Regional Rail' or 'High Speed Line' without the need for historical references. Of course it doesn't help when they get bad directions to begin with. I helped a passenger looking for the Rt 93 bus to Philadelphia out of NTC. It seems Google suggested Philadelphia Premium Outlets as a destination.

Doug M.

maddoxdy wrote:

ExCon90 wrote:No, I wasn't on board, but I had a vision. It was a lot simpler when people could simply say Pennsy or P&W.

It's also simple to specify 'Regional Rail' or 'High Speed Line' without the need for historical references.

Unfortunately, "high speed line" seems to be an overused misnomer. PATCO uses it, and the SEPTA subway-el lines have been called such in public timetables and signage, along with the Norristown line. Even MBTA calls its Mattapan PCC line a "high speed" line. None go near the 300 km/h standard for most of world's high speed lines, though the Brill Bullets have been considered the among the world's first high speed trains.

I think the easiest way forward is to exchange numbers with other routes

I would exchange the 34 with the 14. and I would exchange the 36 with the 16.

The streetcar routes would then be like this
10 - Lancaster Avenue
11- Woodland Avenue
13- Chester Avenue
14- Baltimore Avenue
15- Girard Avenue
16- Elmwood Avenue

So it's like Boston and San Francisco, but distinctly Philadelphia.

call me silly, but i think they should just leave well enough alone. all a change would do would be to confuse newcomers to the system, since all the local people will con tinue to call them by what they've been since forever. how many people do you know who still call the NHSL the 100? the only change inepta should make in this regard is more busses back to trolleys.

trackwelder wrote:call me silly, but i think they should just leave well enough alone. all a change would do would be to confuse newcomers to the system, since all the local people will con tinue to call them by what they've been since forever. how many people do you know who still call the NHSL the 100? the only change inepta should make in this regard is more busses back to trolleys.

I call it the P&W!

AlexC wrote:I call it the P&W!

Me too! A major reason not to use the late, unlamented "100" is that too many people keep stuffing a misplaced "R" in front of it, conflating the line with the old Regional Rail numbers. It just adds to the confusion SEPTA already created by having so many identically-named stations.

ExCon90 wrote:I think the easiest way forward is to exchange numbers with other routes

I would exchange the 34 with the 14. and I would exchange the 36 with the 16.

The streetcar routes would then be like this
10 - Lancaster Avenue
11- Woodland Avenue
13- Chester Avenue
14- Baltimore Avenue
15- Girard Avenue
16- Elmwood Avenue

So it's like Boston and San Francisco, but distinctly Philadelphia.

How did this get credited to me? I'm not the one who posted it.