SEPTA on the lower levels of 30th st?

Before anyone jumps down my throat, let me preface this question by saying that as a railfan and rail advocate, I enjoy learning the why not as much as the why, and I'm simply trying to understand the reasonings and such behind current operations.
Now with that, let me ask, why does SEPTA not use the lower level of 30th st. station? With 9 tracks to SEPTA's 6, I can't imagine Amtrak is in anyway crowded down there even with NJT's Atlantic City line sharing space. How crowded is SEPTA on the upper level anyways? Would they even consider serving 30th st. and not the other Center City stations?

Almost 90% of the weekday riders are traveling to Suburban or Market East.
That's the reason.

Crews remain qualified on lower level for construction related detours or emergency detours.

Well SEPTA did use the lower level for the R2 last year when they were doing heavy track maintenence (switch replacement), and the R1 was being shuttle-bused all the way and the R3 shuttle bused from 30th to 49th Street. Also, the R2 at the lower level caused the reverse orientation of the cars (odd numbered half of the pair and non-pantographed end of a single towards Wilmington instead of away from Wilmington). Plus, using the lower level would mean that University City is bypassed.

BuddCar711 wrote:Well SEPTA did use the lower level for the R2 last year when they were doing heavy track maintenence (switch replacement), and the R1 was being shuttle-bused all the way and the R3 shuttle bused from 30th to 49th Street. Also, the R2 at the lower level caused the reverse orientation of the cars (odd numbered half of the pair and non-pantographed end of a single towards Wilmington instead of away from Wilmington). Plus, using the lower level would mean that University City is bypassed.

http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=85914

Matt and Everyone: SEPTA has used the lower level of 30th Street Station for services like the Diesel trains operated
thru to Lansdale/Doylestown and West Trenton during the two Railworks periods of 1992 and 1993...and the more
recent Rail Power Project that replaced catenary wires on the four track upper level between 30th and Suburban
Stations...Because most SEPTA RRD riders use Suburban and Market East stations the use of the 30th Street lower
level for SEPTA RRD trains is only when it is necessary...Matt is correct there...

MACTRAXX

How did trains get from 30th lower (PRR side) to Landsdale/West Trenton (Reading Side)?

DeltaV wrote:How did trains get from 30th lower (PRR side) to Landsdale/West Trenton (Reading Side)?

They didn't. Passengers had to change at 30th Street to get to Center City and Reading-side points. That's why you don't want to run to the lower level unless you need to.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

DeltaV wrote:How did trains get from 30th lower (PRR side) to Landsdale/West Trenton (Reading Side)?

They didn't. Passengers had to change at 30th Street to get to Center City and Reading-side points. That's why you don't want to run to the lower level unless you need to.

I think he ment Railwork Trains...

Well I know SEPTA borrowed a few NJT diesel and sent them up the Conrail line near North Philadelphia, which in turn lead Main Line by Wayne Jct. There's a video on youtube that shows this odd movement.

MACTRAXX wrote:Matt and Everyone: SEPTA has used the lower level of 30th Street Station for services like the Diesel trains operated
thru to Lansdale/Doylestown and West Trenton during the two Railworks periods of 1992 and 1993.

1--The 1992 detour trains were to/from Fox Chase.
2--While I can't say they didn't use the lower level at all, I do recall boarding the Lansdale detour train on the upper level of 30th Street. They backed the set out of Powelton Yard, reversed at the platform and loaded, and proceeded to Zoo.

My dim memory tries to tell me it was during Railworks that SEPTA had, and I rode once outbound, a diesel hauled weekday scheduled trip or two to and from West Trenton and lower level 30th St. It used whatever the connecting track is at Wayne Junction to the Port Richmond branch. I think it's called the Blue Line, something to do with the Baltimore and Ohio's Royal Blue train.

Then on the Port Richmond branch over the Schuylkill River, I think that's Park Junction, down the west side of the Schuylkill and onto the connecting railroad, which diverges from the ex-Reading's main at Montgomery Drive, I think that's Belmont Junction. Once upon a time there was a switch at Zoo Junction to let trains from that line go to 30th St. The only other time I rode that was a 1996 or so special from 30th St to the Vanity Fair outlet in Wyomissing, just west of Reading. At that time the switch was gone, so we had to go south from 30th St, reverse at Arsenal, then north on the High Line freight bypass.
Whenever I rode that West Trenton diesel train the switch was still there, so it must have been before 1996, and I'm pretty sure my particular outbound afternoon rush hour trip left from 30th St lower level.
I think I also remember a Fox Chase trip or two, but I didn't ride that, but I thought they also used lower level. Of course it's possible they might have used upper level a few times, or my memory's just not the second thing to go and I can't remember what the first thing was.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

MACTRAXX wrote:Matt and Everyone: SEPTA has used the lower level of 30th Street Station for services like the Diesel trains operated
thru to Lansdale/Doylestown and West Trenton during the two Railworks periods of 1992 and 1993.

1--The 1992 detour trains were to/from Fox Chase.
2--While I can't say they didn't use the lower level at all, I do recall boarding the Lansdale detour train on the upper level of 30th Street. They backed the set out of Powelton Yard, reversed at the platform and loaded, and proceeded to Zoo.

Matt: SEPTA operated thru diesel trains to both West Trenton and Lansdale/Doylestown during both the 6 month 1992 and four month 1993 Railworks construction periods...

The Fox Chase service that you mention ran for about a four to six week period in August and September 1992 and used one of the switcher locomotives pulling two P/P cars...
The reason was to potentially expand service to other lines during the 1993 Railworks shutdown over and above the two lines served by rush hour direct Diesel service...
As we know that never happened and the special Fox Chase service was not repeated...

MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote:Matt: SEPTA operated thru diesel trains to both West Trenton and Lansdale/Doylestown during both the 6 month 1992 and four month 1993 Railworks construction periods...

The Fox Chase service that you mention ran for about a four to six week period in August and September 1992 and used one of the switcher locomotives pulling two P/P cars...
The reason was to potentially expand service to other lines during the 1993 Railworks shutdown over and above the two lines served by rush hour direct Diesel service...

Uhhh, we at DVARP were the people who fought for that service.
I served bagels and coffee on that first Fox Chase Special.

I am no expert either. But here is some information I recently came across:

According to one of the current operating agreements,SEPTA has no unilateral right to use the lower level for passenger service at this time. SEPTA's trackage rights on Amtrak property lie between Marcus Hook and Arsenal, Zoo and Trenton, and Zoo and Paoli. Arsenal to Zoo is not included, probably for reason described by Matthew Mitchell. I am sure that accommodations and other deals are made from time to time.
FWIW, another agreement stipulates that SEPTA crews are to switch Amtrak trains at 30th Street Station, so there is clearly a need to have SEPTA crews qualified on the lower level. Not sure if this really happens, but that is what I am reading.

MattW wrote:Before anyone jumps down my throat, let me preface this question by saying that as a railfan and rail advocate, I enjoy learning the why not as much as the why, and I'm simply trying to understand the reasonings and such behind current operations.
Now with that, let me ask, why does SEPTA not use the lower level of 30th st. station? With 9 tracks to SEPTA's 6, I can't imagine Amtrak is in anyway crowded down there even with NJT's Atlantic City line sharing space. How crowded is SEPTA on the upper level anyways? Would they even consider serving 30th st. and not the other Center City stations?

Passaic River Rat wrote:I am no expert either. But here is some information I recently came across:

According to one of the current operating agreements,SEPTA has no unilateral right to use the lower level for passenger service at this time. SEPTA's trackage rights on Amtrak property lie between Marcus Hook and Arsenal, Zoo and Trenton, and Zoo and Paoli. Arsenal to Zoo is not included, probably for reason described by Matthew Mitchell. I am sure that accommodations and other deals are made from time to time.
FWIW, another agreement stipulates that SEPTA crews are to switch Amtrak trains at 30th Street Station, so there is clearly a need to have SEPTA crews qualified on the lower level. Not sure if this really happens, but that is what I am reading.

MattW wrote:Before anyone jumps down my throat, let me preface this question by saying that as a railfan and rail advocate, I enjoy learning the why not as much as the why, and I'm simply trying to understand the reasonings and such behind current operations.
Now with that, let me ask, why does SEPTA not use the lower level of 30th st. station? With 9 tracks to SEPTA's 6, I can't imagine Amtrak is in anyway crowded down there even with NJT's Atlantic City line sharing space. How crowded is SEPTA on the upper level anyways? Would they even consider serving 30th st. and not the other Center City stations?

Too bad they couldn't help that wayward keystone the other day...

MACTRAXX wrote:Matt and Everyone: SEPTA has used the lower level of 30th Street Station for services like the Diesel trains operated
thru to Lansdale/Doylestown and West Trenton during the two Railworks periods of 1992 and 1993...and the more
recent Rail Power Project that replaced catenary wires on the four track upper level between 30th and Suburban
Stations...Because most SEPTA RRD riders use Suburban and Market East stations the use of the 30th Street lower
level for SEPTA RRD trains is only when it is necessary...Matt is correct there...

I was a "victim" of the Railpower project iykwim the Sunday in 2003 that I attended my last Phillies game at the Vet. Rode the R2 from Marcus Hook (would have boarded at Claymont if SEPTA went into Delaware back then). The MFL had limited service due to construction (my mind may be foggy here), so the next leg was the SSL from 30th to 15th, then the BSL down to the Vet.

motor