SEPTA NJT COOPERATION idea

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Agreed that there are good reasons for Philadelphia-North Jersey via West Trenton to be a one-seat ride, but they're not enough to justify the additional operating costs. Look at projected ridership on the Bound Brook-West Trenton segment, the West Trenton-Jenkintown segment, and the Jenkintown-Philadelphia segment, and you'll understand why such a through service is a low priority.

Offering a one-seat ride via Trenton (obviating the transfer and the stratospheric Amtrak fares) is a much more rational move, and would likely happen long before a one-seat ride via West Trenton.

The longer these trips are, the more equipment they tie up unproductively.

What you do is you use some trips with NJ Transit equipment and some with SEPTA and start to share equipment

WaitinginSJ wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:The longer these trips are, the more equipment they tie up unproductively.

What you do is you use some trips with NJ Transit equipment and some with SEPTA and start to share equipment

That's not the point. When you plan schedules and consists, you have to have enough equipment to carry the peak load of the trip. What is a peak train on the NJT side will be a reverse-peak train and much less loaded on the SEPTA side, and vice versa.

And this also goes for other end-to-end connections of commuter rail services, such as MARC/SEPTA at Newark or Wilmington.

This is true, but perhaps there is a solution. I have to think there is something better than the current set up. Perhaps we could split trains in Trenton. This is commonly done in other countries. A shorter set of cars and loco would continue to Philadelphia.

Right now, the long trains have two locomotives, yes? Imagine if you had a long push-pull set of cars with an engine at each end and two cab cars in the middle. Then you split the train in Trenton, and half keeps going. Perhaps there is a technical reason why this wouldn't work, but the overall concept of splitting trains is possible.

adamkrom,
I like your idea in principal.
My non-expert guess would be that it takes too long to join the consists at Trenton to make it worthwhile. Does anybody know how long it should take to tack a locomotive pushed train onto a locomotive pulled train and get it ready to move?
I've never understood why it's dangerous to run a brake test, or at least why when a train pulls into a terminal and discharged passengers, no matter how lousy the weather, I've always been told I cannot board until after the crew has done the brake test.

I assume you're talking about
having a long train from New York come in to Trenton, drop the Trenton passengers,
allow the exisitng Philly passengers to stay on board the appropriate cars,
load new Philly passengers.
Have the front bunch of cars and motive power detach from the unneeded rear cars
perform whatever tests they need to get the train moving to Philly
the rear cars and motive power wait where they are, presumably not enough cars to warrant sending back to New York in service
the next train from Philly crawl into the station and couple to the now rear of those waiting cars
perform whatever tests they need to get that relengthened train moving to New York

How long does it take? Depends on how motivated you are. I've been on NS (Netherlands Railways) trains that split on the fly, and Muni LRVs that coupled and split in less than a minute. Amtrak typically takes 3 to 5 minutes (see Lake Shore Ltd at Albany or Springfield trains at New Haven), but would rather schedule 10.

About 20 years ago, when both SEPTA and NJT operated MUs exclusively to Trenton, the two agencies discussed the idea broached here of operating reduced consists south of there. I was told by one involved that NJT resisted the idea of mixing its equipment with SEPTA's, claiming "incompatibility" NJT also complained that continual coupling and uncoupling would wear out their couplers. SEPTA's rejoinder was that they adjusted consists frequently and had learned how better to maintain couplers.

Apparently, the discussion deteriorated; and it was concluded on this side that the other party really wasn't interested and was looking for pretexts to drop the idea.

Look carefully at the economic and political factors involved, and you see that the main benefiting parties would be on the SEPTA end. Perhaps that explains it.

Umm...aren't the Arrow III and Silverliner IV pertty much THE SAME TRAIN???

cpontani wrote:Umm...aren't the Arrow III and Silverliner IV pertty much THE SAME TRAIN???

Nope. There are a number of electrical incompatibilities between the two equipment types, not the least of which involves the trainline door controls, and likely more since the Arrows were rebuilt with AC traction and other upgrades in the early to mid 1990's.

I was given a picture of a set of Silverliner IV's coupled to Arrow III's at Trenton. The mechanical parts of the couplers ARE compatible. However, the electric heads of the couplers were not opened, due to the incompatibility of the two equipment types. As for why they were coupled, there was some kind of equipment problem going on and it had to be moved ASAP; the NJT train was the only train able to assist.

adamkrom wrote:This is true, but perhaps there is a solution. I have to think there is something better than the current set up. Perhaps we could split trains in Trenton. This is commonly done in other countries. A shorter set of cars and loco would continue to Philadelphia.
Right now, the long trains have two locomotives, yes? Imagine if you had a long push-pull set of cars with an engine at each end and two cab cars in the middle. Then you split the train in Trenton, and half keeps going. Perhaps there is a technical reason why this wouldn't work, but the overall concept of splitting trains is possible.

All the NJT push-pull trains run with a locomotive only on one end of the train, and in the case of trains to Trenton, the trainsets could be facing either direction, making any split/adding of cars a problem if the train is running in push mode for the direction of travel.

Average time to add/subtract cars and do the required brake tests, plus having the ground crew needed to couple and uncouple air/communication hoses and HEP electrical lines would add perhaps 15-20 minutes to the trip. Using MU's would knock about 10 minutes off that, but since compatibility is an issue, that knocks that idea out.

Even mixing SEPTA and NJT push-pull equipment would have compatibility issues. When SEPTA purchased the Comet I's, they found issues that would prohibit them from mixing the Comets with their own Bombardier fleet, and the result is that the Comets remain in a dedicated trainset, with modifications having been made to be able to operate with our electric locomotives.

The Silverliner V trainlines will be partially compatible with the SLIV's with no intent to mix consists. Only for rescues.