Restarting the Broadway Limited

The "restore a defunct route" thread was getting many different responses and went a lot of different ways so I decided to start a new thread specifically for the Broadway Limited.

I'm relatively new to this group. My first overnight Amtrak trip was the Broadway Limited from Chicago to Pennsylvania. That was right before it was cancelled. They then had a Three Rivers for a few years along mostly the same route but that got canceled. Without the train, most of Pennsylvania between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia have no direct train to Chicago. While Philly, Trenton, and Newark can ride the Cardinal all the way to Chicago the train takes so long that it would be quicker to go to either NY or DC and transfer to either the Capitol Limited or Lake Shore Limited. The other possibility (only reasonable one for passengers west of Harrisburg) is to transfer in Pittsburgh. The westbound wait time is 8:05pm to 11:59pm and the eastbound is 5:05am to 7:30am. Neither time is ideal and Pittsburgh's Amtrak is tiny. I actually traveled the CL this summer and it was delayed about four hours getting into DC and I missed my connection to Philly (actually Trenton). But I still got to Trenton before the Cardinal did.

I feel a Broadway Limited would have significant demand (probably not as much ridership/revenue of the LSL or CL but still significant). Amtrak themselves proposed in the PRIIA to use the Pennsylvanian as through cars to/from the CL. While you would get a one seat ride, according to the PRIIA the wait times wouldn't go away (they'd actually increase slightly). In reality, I feel Amtrak should have a separate train Chicago to Philadelphia/New York so you don't have to worry about the splitting/merging in Pittsburgh and the delays in Pittsburgh would be much shorter. When the Broadway Limited/Three Rivers served Pittsburgh it left earlier to Chicago and arrived from Chicago later so it served Pittsburgh-Chicago traffic better than the Capitol does now. It also served as a separate Pittsburgh to Philadelphia/New York train.

Since NYP-CHI via PHL is longer than 750 miles, technically Amtrak can start it without state funding (we know one of the main states, Ohio, doesn't want to fund any trains) although I'm sure Amtrak will demand at least some funding if they want the train. Once the Viewliner II's come in, equipment shouldn't be an issue.

I feel the old BL/TR path via Ft. Wayne and/or Akron is not feasible anymore. The quickest way to restart the route is to use the Capitol Limited route from CHI to PGH and the Pennsylvanian route from PGH to NYP. All Aboard Ohio (http://allaboardohio.org/2015/09/22/new ... nger-rail/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) has suggested traveling through Michigan to Toledo instead of the current CL/LSL route. The route would be longer but it would give Michigan (Detroit/Ann Arbor) a direct train to PHL/NYP. Right now, to get to the East Coast from Michigan you have to take a Thruway Bus to Toledo and arrive late at night). Also, Amtrak owns a large portion of the Wolverine route so they don't have to negotiate with Norfolk Southern or any other freight company along that portion and can run the train at a faster speed to minimize the time required. I feel the "detour" into Michigan would be beneficial to Amtrak. All Aboard Ohio projected an extended Pennsylvanian to Chicago via Michigan would have an annual ridership of 360,000 (although that is probably counting the current Pennsylvanian ridership) with a second frequency along the same route having a ridership of 200,000 a year. That route would better serve Ohio than the current LSL and CL do and the times in Michigan would improve as well (most of Pennsylvania would be during the graveyard shift but they already have the Pennsylvanian). Perhaps if the new Broadway went through Michigan they might be interested in helping with funding.

I think the train is beneficial to Pennsylvania and New Jersey residents in giving them a direct train to/from Chicago and access to the West Coast and Texas. If the train goes through Michigan, it would be a big boost to Michigan rail service. If the train uses All Aboard Ohio's "Three Rivers" schedule, it would make travel to/from Cleveland and Toledo way more attractive than the current graveyard shift times. It won't allow for same day transfers to the west but the CL/LSL will still be options for western transfers.

Sure it will cost Amtrak and/or the states/cities a lot of money but I (and AAO) feel it will be well worth it. Without it, I feel Pennsylvania and New Jersey are second class citizens in the Amtrak long distance system.

Thanks for starting this thread!

Here is where things left off last time we discussed this.

I think fundamentally you have to decide which population you want the train to serve best. If this effort is aimed at the Philadelphia - New Jersey market (which is a VERY significant one for Amtrak) then I think there cannot be any compromises with the Michigan detour. If this effort is instead aimed at the Michigan - Ohio travel market then I there are some different options that could be considered.

I think the first question to answer is travel demand and service levels. Is Amtrak serving the market that has demand for this service? I do not think that they are. In particular I think it makes a lot of sense to provide direct service to Chicago from Philadelphia and New Jersey. I agree that the current options are not acceptable and that a restored Broadway Limited would benefit from being timed in order to best serve these markets.

I like the fact that this train would be able to leverage the improvements made on the Keystone Line to Harrisburg since the Broadway Limited/Three Rivers last operated and I also like that fact that this train would potentially be more successful because of the availability of new and improved rolling stock. These are all weaknesses that that previous service had and that the new train would answer successfully.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:Without it, I feel Pennsylvania and New Jersey are second class citizens in the Amtrak long distance system.

Really, second to whom, New York City and Chicago?
Philadelphia sees the following long distance trains visit it every day, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Crescent, Palmetto, and sees the Cardinal thrice a week. The only long distance trains on the east coast it doesn't see are the Lake Shore Limited, and the Capitol Limited, both a can be easily catched with just one transfer in really nice stations. Chicago sees the daily Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle, City of New Orleans, Capitol Limited, Lake Shore Limited, and the thrice weekly Cardinal. It's number one when it comes to long distance trains, but it sees trains running to three coasts.
Believe it or not, Philadelphia sees more daily long distance trains than Los Angeles.

Thrice a week someone can already board the Cardinal and have a one seat ride to Chicago. Now I wouldn't mind seeing the rolling stock of that train take a different route to Chicago.

But I have a very difficult time agreeing with you that Philadelphia is treated by Amtrak as second class, when a much larger metro (specifically Houston) sees thrice a week service from just one train (Sunset Limited). Now, that really qualifies as second class service!

I think that's a very good point regarding Philadelphia.

On the other hand I think that Amtrak has more than sufficient justification to strongly consider reinstatement of the Broadway Limited.

Perhaps the biggest reason of all is that things have changed significantly from 2005 when this train last ran as the Three Rivers. Specifically I think the increased utilization of Amtrak in the target service area (Philadelphia/New Jersey) would be the biggest reason for considering this proposal. Ridership on the NEC is much stronger than it was in 2005 and appears prepared to go higher.

One interesting possibility for a test case could be using the Cardinal train sets on off days.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote: Without it, I feel Pennsylvania and New Jersey are second class citizens in the Amtrak long distance system.

I live in Houston, fourth biggest city in the country. If Philly is second class, I must be third world.

electricron wrote:

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:Without it, I feel Pennsylvania and New Jersey are second class citizens in the Amtrak long distance system.

Really, second to whom, New York City and Chicago?
Philadelphia sees the following long distance trains visit it every day, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Crescent, Palmetto, and sees the Cardinal thrice a week. The only long distance trains on the east coast it doesn't see are the Lake Shore Limited, and the Capitol Limited, both a can be easily catched with just one transfer in really nice stations. Chicago sees the daily Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle, City of New Orleans, Capitol Limited, Lake Shore Limited, and the thrice weekly Cardinal. It's number one when it comes to long distance trains, but it sees trains running to three coasts.
Believe it or not, Philadelphia sees more daily long distance trains than Los Angeles.

Thrice a week someone can already board the Cardinal and have a one seat ride to Chicago. Now I wouldn't mind seeing the rolling stock of that train take a different route to Chicago.

But I have a very difficult time agreeing with you that Philadelphia is treated by Amtrak as second class, when a much larger metro (specifically Houston) sees thrice a week service from just on train (Sunset Limited). Now, that really qualifies as second class service!

No doubt Philly has great service to Florida, Atlanta, and New Orleans. It does not have great service to Chicago unless you consider 26 hours great service. And that's not even daily. That makes it harder to get to other cities west of Chicago. You get to Chicago and it opens up a lot of cities/states to you. In terms of Amtrak LD service, it is the most important city. You can have a daily one seat ride from North Dakota to Chicago but not Philadelphia? That would be second class. The transfer is convenient? Not if you miss it.

Also remember there's more to Pennsylvania than Philadelphia. Harrisburg, Lancaster, Altoona, and Johnstown do not have the same direct Florida/Southeast trains as Philly. In fact these cities have no LD train service. Plus it takes longer for them to get to New York for the LSL and they have no direct way to get to DC for the CL. They are definitely second class to a lot of other cities including White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia.

I'm not saying there aren't other cities don't have less than ideal Amtrak service. Of course there are. You mention Houston. I feel Houston should also have a direct route to Chicago (what happened to the Dallas-Houston branch of the Texas Eagle)? And there's quite a few cities like Nashville, Louisville, and Columbus that have no train service at all. Of course I am biased to Philadelphia for obvious reasons but I feel my complaints are justified. And Philadelphia is not the only city that would benefit from a revival of the Broadway.

I

I just hope that the choir likes hearing this same sermon again. Last time they fell dead asleep!

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:The "restore a defunct route" thread was getting many different responses and went a lot of different ways so I decided to start a new thread specifically for the Broadway Limited.

Once the Viewliner II's come in, equipment shouldn't be an issue.

I feel Pennsylvania and New Jersey are second class citizens in the Amtrak long distance system.

Oh, I thought the proposal was to help Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Toledo (with buses to Ann Arbor, Dearborn, and Detroit), which badly need, and well deserve, daylight service to/from CHI. My bad.

And sorry to say, when the 130th and final car is accepted from CAF, Amtrak will be short of sleepers and diners for sure, probably dorm-bag cars too, and maybe baggage cars as well. Not to mention desperately short of coaches.

Still, I'm worried your Broadway's biggest problem could be getting another slot thru the South Of The Lake jungle.

Aside from that, go for it!

gokeefe wrote:Thanks for starting this thread!

Here is where things left off last time we discussed this.

I think fundamentally you have to decide which population you want the train to serve best. If this effort is aimed at the Philadelphia - New Jersey market (which is a VERY significant one for Amtrak) then I think there cannot be any compromises with the Michigan detour. If this effort is instead aimed at the Michigan - Ohio travel market then I there are some different options that could be considered.

I think the first question to answer is travel demand and service levels. Is Amtrak serving the market that has demand for this service? I do not think that they are. In particular I think it makes a lot of sense to provide direct service to Chicago from Philadelphia and New Jersey. I agree that the current options are not acceptable and that a restored Broadway Limited would benefit from being timed in order to best serve these markets.

I like the fact that this train would be able to leverage the improvements made on the Keystone Line to Harrisburg since the Broadway Limited/Three Rivers last operated and I also like that fact that this train would potentially be more successful because of the availability of new and improved rolling stock. These are all weaknesses that that previous service had and that the new train would answer successfully.

No reason why we can't compromise. Even with the Michigan detour, it would still be significantly quicker to get to Chicago from Philly/Harrisburg/Lancaster/New Jersey than it is now. Plus, it does add valuable city pairs. If Michigan is willing to pay to help, why not help them out? And that's many less miles you have to negotiate with Norfolk Southern for across Indiana. Of course, the new can of worms is getting a train from Detroit to Toledo.

JoeBas wrote:I just hope that the choir likes hearing this same sermon again. Last time they fell dead asleep!

I think that's a very fair point and considered it in writing my own reply to the original post. The presumption here is that this is simply a restatement of the same case from 2005 (or earlier if you're considering the Broadway Limited). The case is most certainly not the same. A modal shift in transportation has taken place that has substantially increased the utilization of passenger rail services in the Philadelphia and New Jersey markets.

There is now more demand than ever before for rail passenger service in these markets, which are the absolute largest that Amtrak serves. Also different from 2005 (or earlier) there is not a lot of slack capacity in domestic air routes. Load factors (and fares) are higher than ever as a result of several rounds of consolidation among major U.S. carriers. The consequence of this is that Amtrak is more competitive than ever in these markets and this results in a very different revenue/cost picture for any service proposal, especially those which run to and from the Northeast Corridor.

as a philadelphian (who readily admits Houston should have good connections to san antonio and Austin at the very least) I would prefer a broad way. I also think that third slot is important for scheduling flexibility. Pennsylvania appears ready to pay for two Pennsylvanian trains so I would opt for the Broadway to go back to an overnight schedule between Pittsburgh and philly. no state should be asked to fund the service, that's a bad precedent Imo. the state contribution comes through their payments for existing stations. if no Chicago slot is available then one of the Pennsylvanian trains should be extended to Pontiac or tole do. there is a significant portion of pa Ohio Indiana traffic...well call it the amish factor.

Suburban Station wrote:no state should be asked to fund the service, that's a bad precedent Imo.

I strongly agree. And there is no basis for Amtrak to request assistance with services that they are solely responsible for.

Somebody's got to pay for it. I would suggest that this fall everybody vote for congresspersons who support Amtrak and would be willing to vote for increased funding. Definitely don't vote for people who hate government and don't won't to spend money on anything. Other than that, maybe create a Gofundme account for the revived Broadway. Or find a multi-billionaire who likes trains.

Given Amtrak's far lower loss rate there may be room within their annual appropriation to pay for the Broadway Limited especially if they are using existing equipment (Cardinal train sets on off days), existing routes, existing slots (out of NYP) and existing stations (PGH-CHI on the current route). The overhead expense of restarting this train is exceptionally low and potentially limited to marketing costs only. That's a bargain basement cost for a train which would serve their strongest markets. Not a bad deal at all.

Until the CP(EHH)vs NS proxy war is over and done with,NS will not consider any type Amtrak service expansion,
for now any spare $$$ is earmarked to the legal sharks fighting off EHH+company hostile takeover attempt.
IF EHH was able to win the fight and install a Board of Directors of his choise,any agreements for a Broadway Ltd/
Three Rivers restart would be canceled by the new(EHH's) BoD from the get go.

The route beyond H-burg is NS(ex-PC) trackage to Chicago that has been brought up to decent freight standards,past
Pittsburg, where current Amtrak service ends.
CP and VIA barely play nice with the Canadian train,figure the same with Amtrak IF EHH gets NS.