• Recent Threats Made Towards Trains

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

  by LUVFREIGHTTRAINS
 
Hey Guys!

Please take this FYI to heart. Was out with my family yesterday at Bear Mountain where we and many of you go to do some railfanning. While up there some called the Police on us stating we were conducting Terroristic Acts with a scanner and camera. NYS Park Police showed up to see what was going on. After running my ID and checking us out we were cleared and asked not to film anymore. Point is this the threats out there are being taking serious and people are getting nervous about people watching trains. I think its a good idea to back off from filming till all blows over. Hopefully things will blow over without there ever being an incident. i was out with my 5 yr son and Gf and this is what happened, imagine if it was one of you guys alone on the tracks with a scanner , camera and a notpad. Just an FYI ,,,

David and Gang
  by DutchRailnut
 
One of our rail/transit fans created a petition on the spreading Photo ban at:
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/notransitpicban
please read it and consider signing it, this photoban could spread to freight railroads or and LIRR/MNCR as well.
and what would be next ?? the shut down of rail forums ?? don't believe for a moment that this is over, a ban on photography could linger for decades before it is repealed.

  by trainfreak
 
This is really sad how its just getting worse and worse. Now it has affected me being that i railfan CSX's Riverline most often just in New Jersey. But i have been planning on going upstate to railfan.

  by Otto Vondrak
 
No need to alter your plans, and no need to stop taking pictures of trains. Taking pictures of trains is not illegal. The police cannot confiscate your camera or your film without a court order. They can ask you to leave or move along from your present location. Always cooperate with police but DO NOT EVER hand over your camera or film. THAT is against the law, and you are protected by the Constitution from such intrusions.

As always, be careful, be alert, and dont make a nusiance of yourself.

-otto-

  by NYSW3614
 
Far as I can tell this situation will "never blow over." That being said I will never stop taking pictures, shooting film, and I will continue to be sensible about it.

Joshua
Last edited by NYSW3614 on Sun May 23, 2004 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

  by charlie6017
 
I'm with Otto. I refuse to stop taking photos and stop filming--I always do mine from public property and I mind my own business.

  by Robert Paniagua
 
I'm with Otto. I refuse to stop taking photos and stop filming--I always do mine from public property and I mind my own business.

Same here Charlie, I'll just keep doing it also. Although I'll try to be quick, and also look around befoure and after filming.

  by WANF-11--->Chaser
 
Or we can all watch the Monty Python skit "How not to be seen".

Just put on your camoflage find some underbrush and weeds, paint your face and hide in the bushes.

Guerilla Railfanning!

Or like on the movie Joe Dirt. Wear a cardboard sign that says "Not a Terrorist" (Joe Dirt's said "Won't kill you" when he was hitchhiking")

LOL

I think it's funny, the conspicuous people get hassled. Sad thing is its the ones nobody will have seen that will turn out to be the real threat.

  by O-6-O
 
Not to be a hard case but why do we need to "move along" at the request
of the man if we are not doing anything illegal or are not interfering
with anybody or anything, but just taking pictures or listening in on a
public airway. Do I need to go to jail to protect my right to railfan?
Are there any lawyers out there that can chime in. I've never been asked
to leave a spot after a query from the law and don't know what i'll do
when it happens. Something not stupid I hope.

STEAM ON
/--OOO--:-oo--oo-

  by crij
 
I hate to mention it, but you guys that live in NY, will need to confirm this. Last I heard, having a mobil scanner (portable or car mounted) in the state of NY is illegal for people other then Police, Firemen, Ambulance and other civil workers / authorities.

I only know this because I grew up about 15 miles from the state line in Connecticut, and have always had a mobil scanner mounted in my vehicles.

So unfortunatly, listening to those `public' airwaves, within NY is justification enough, for the police inquiry. Usually unless the officer is on a power trip, they will ask you to shut it off and leave it off untill outside the state lines.

Have fun and be safe,

Rich
  by pablo
 
Having a scanner in NY is illegal, an has been for as far back as I can remember...and I'm 31. The easy and understandable reason is that Police and other authority broadcasts can be monitored. I believe a lot of scanners now a days have a scramble or erase button now, but I believe that the previous gentleman is correct...having one is a justifiable reason to search you.

Dave Becker

  by WANF-11--->Chaser
 
Having a scanner is legal in NYS. I used to ride all over Lockport, NY on my bike with mine on my hip or in hand, and I'm 28.

It IS however illegal to use or have a scanner in a vehicle. As far as I know the law did not change. Only volunteer firemen and police officers may have a scanner hard wired to their car's electrical system.

If your moving from site to site I suggest removing the battery and antenna from your set and lock it all in your trunk. As long as it's not in plain view and you dont give the gestapo any other reason to search your vehicle (like being a jerk and giving them a hard time when they ask you to move along or ask you questions), you'll be ok.

I think now there are more than a few people on this board though that can see how political correctness (eg not profiling middle easterners, muslims and their allies) leads to all Americans losing some of their rights and freedoms.

  by DutchRailnut
 
http://www.nf2g.com/scannist/nys_laws.html

Mobile Scanning
Section 397 of the Vehicle and Traffic Law makes it unlawful to equip a motor vehicle with "a radio receiving set capable of receiving signals on the frequencies allocated for police use" unless one is a Peace Officer or a licensed amateur radio operator.

This section provides for obtaining a mobile monitoring permit from the police, but the average citizen is not likely to be granted such a permit. They have been issued to newsgathering organizations and to companies that serve the public and can demonstrate a need for mobile monitoring.

Many ham operators are of the opinion that the so-called "ham exemption" to Section 397 only applies to amateur transceivers that incidentally receive frequencies outside of the ham bands. I believed that reasoning myself until I did a little bit of research. As it turns out, Section 397 was passed into law before there were any ham rigs with built-in extended VHF coverage. Therefore, it was not likely the Legislature's intent to exempt equipment that did not yet exist.

Different local courts and police agencies have varying ideas about the actual meaning of Section 397. The law is not clear and there are no Court of Appeals cases that control statewide interpretation of this statute. I am researching the issue and preparing an article about it for submission to a law journal. When the article is published, I will announce it here.

A.2601 would allow volunteer firefighters and ambulance corps members to install mobile fire and ambulance frequency receivers in their cars without a permit. This obviously well-intentioned bill does not actually address the real problems with the current law, because it does not specifically address the use of police frequency receivers. There are no scanners available that are capable of fire/EMS reception while being unable to tune police frequencies. Also, there are other classes of citizens that need to have mobile scanners (Red Cross disaster volunteers, Neighborhood Watch groups, Civil Air Patrol members, private security guards, etc.), and none of them are mentioned. (This bill was sent to the Assembly Transportation Committee on January 29, 2003 and again on January 7, 2004. Several similar bills have been allowed to languish this way in previous sessions.)

New York State has another law on the books that may have some bearing on scanner use. While not specifically directed at the hobbyist, Section 140.40 of the NYS Penal Code deals with unauthorized use of radio equipment. This law's intent is to prosecute the use of police frequency receivers by criminals who wish to escape apprehension. It also applies to the use of any two-way radio equipment in the commission of any of the specified crimes (robbery, burglary, larceny, gambling or drug offenses). An example would be the use of a pair of 49 MHz walkie-talkies in a "lookout" arrangement.

New York further restricts use of radio receiving equipment in Section 250.05 of the Penal Code (Eavesdropping). A New York court held that this law applies to the monitoring of cordless radio telephones in People v. Fata, 159 A.D.2d 180, 559 N.Y.S.2d 248 (1st Dep't 1990).

Transmitting on an official public safety or governmental radio network without permission could be a Class A Misdemeanor under Penal Law Section 195.05 (Obstructing governmental administration in the second degree). This offense would become a felony if the interference causes "serious physical injury" to anyone, according to Section 195.07 (OGA in the first degree). I say "could be" because the regulation of radio transmitters is clearly within federal jurisdiction.

Local Ordinances
The City of Rochester scanner ordinance is Code 44-2. Note that the ordinance goes beyond the State's restriction on mobile use of a police frequency receiver. The City sought to ban mobile and portable police and fire receivers.

This law does not appear to be well known among law enforcement officers in the City of Rochester. I have been told what channel to monitor during a major incident by a police officer who could see the portable receiver in my hand. A large number of volunteer firefighters from surrounding communities, as well as many other spectators, can be found at the scene of any multiple alarm fire in the City. They do not get arrested despite having portable fire receivers with them.

  by nessman
 
Firemen/EMS types aren't authorized to have scanners in their cars. That's a big myth here in NY. Bottom line - can't have 'em in your car unless you're a police/peace officer working. On the other hand, the law is rarely enforced. Don't give the police a reason to stop you and you have nothing to worry about. The Vehicle & Traffic Law statute here NY is an unclassified misdemeanor.

  by Otto Vondrak
 
0-6-0 said:
Not to be a hard case but why do we need to "move along"...
Beacause they are the police, and they are the ones with the firearms. In a greater sense, they have a job to do, and all police officers deserve our respect and cooperation.

-otto-