R.I.P., MetroRail: What's Next?

I figured we might as well pick up on the sad state of the Schuylkill Valley Metro, aka MetroRail, aka SEPTA Wants a Trolley To Wyomissing & Reading. The previous SEPTA proposal was torpedoed by the Feds, and has pretty much sunk. Good riddance.

I hope that awareness of MetroRail's fatal flaws is now finding its way into more public forums. Scrutiny by outsiders is the only way to hold SEPTA back from proposing another "any mode BUT commuter rail" fiasco.

Why does SEPTA have such a phobia about conventional diesel-loco-hauled commuter rail over the NS/ex-RDG Main Line? I know the bias is there, and that the agency is widely rumored to want to eventually transitize everything possible on its Railroad Divison. But *why*?

Remember that even the RRD is run by transit people. If the CTD was run by FRA types, the route 15 would be a push-pull diesel.....

Why does SEPTA have such a phobia about conventional diesel-loco-hauled commuter rail over the NS/ex-RDG Main Line?

They do not have a terminal for such trains to go to in Philly anymore, since Reading Terminal was closed, correct? Unless they rebuild the old 24th Street Station (B&O) or build a connector between the Reading lines and 30th Street's lower level. The only way to send diesels through the Center City Tunnel is to make them dual-mode, and no manufacturer is building a catenary-powered one.

There is another alternative, and that's to MU the Silverliners to DMUs and thus have a more reliable dual-mode operation. However, I don't know how well Silverliners could push-pull a dead-in-tow DMU up and down the grade out of Penn Center; certainly, there are DMUs out there nowadays that can push-pull two trailer cars...

Also, running a "trolley" between Philly and Reading—that's a distance of over 60 miles, correct? The only desirable service, really, would be regional rail, toilet-equipped, for such a distance.

How difficult (in real terms, not SEPTA terms) would it to build a connection so Reading Commuter Rail (and perhaps a revitalized R6) could make it to 30th St. How about using the R6 as a basis for Reading Commuter Rail?

[quote="Irish Chieftain"]Unless they rebuild the old 24th Street Station (B&O) or build a connector between the Reading lines and 30th Street's lower level.

I went on a nice rant about a similar statement in the old railroad.net forum, so I'll do it here again and get it out of the way early. There is no need to rebuild 24th St Station; they could switch some lines to diesel today without building any new stations or tracks. Consider what lines would benefit the most from being diesel, and you see that SEPTA's most diesel-suited long-distance (including potential expansion) trains are on the old Pennsy side of the system, so they could all be quite easily routed to the lower level of 30th St. The RDG side of the system is less likely to really benefit -- other than the R5 and maybe the R3, the only benefit that side would get from diesels is if service were restored to Newtown (ain't gonna happen) or New Hope (just as unlikely). Quakertown (and beyond) service would benefit, but that run could easily be routed down the Stony Creek Branch onto Pennsy-side tracks to go under 30th.

Here's a somewhat random thought, though. The reason diesels aren't allowed in the tunnel is the fumes they produce. Would it be possible to somehow retrofit ventilation into the tunnel so that diesels could run (and more importantly, stop) in the tunnel?

"Would it be possible to somehow retrofit ventilation into the tunnel so that diesels could run (and more importantly, stop) in the tunnel?"

It's possible, although probably not easy considering all the buildings over the tunnel, and the need to vent it into open air. I would think it would have been built with such ventilation if it could have been done easily.

I just want to mention that while SEPTA's version of Metro Rail was a glorified trolley...the equipment would be anything but.

A portion of the Silverliner V order as well as any future add-ons were to be the initial equipment for Metro Rail as well as replacing the Silverliner II and III fleets.

I also heard from a contact at SEPTA that as part of the project, the Silverliner IV fleet will have their couplers replaced to match the Silverliner V fleet after it arrives for compatibility purposes. Now wouldn't it be much more cost-effective to simply use the spear-type couplers on the current MU fleet on the new equipment???

:roll:

Just run the diesel out of 30th Street over to Ivy Ridge then onto the R6 Line. No need to run into the tunnel. "For Reading--change at 30th Street for Diesel Express Service."

Why would SEPTA not consider purchasing refrub RDC's from Canada. I believe the price per unit is $350k base. New engines up to date electronics etc and will function with the NS signals in place today. FRA approved.

1) Low cost entry into service with no turn around or push pull requirements. Try a lease purchase, GE will lease them for you.
2) Run to the upper deck of 3oth street, Let the people change trains
3) Service / repair to units - Contract the service or do it yourself.
4) No major track or structure changes required to operate.
5) Different service but the cash outlay is peanuts compared to the "metro" cash outlay. If it should fail the loss would not be as great, if it works they have a upgrade path that can justified based on expansion of ridership from a real base of riders.

Different but at least it gets the ball rolling with some level of service

http://www.industrial-rail.com/ REBUILT RDC SUPPLIER



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FRA approved

Does that include crashworthiness regs? Not to mention that RDCs had manual doors. A custom door-brace would be required to get FRA approval, and this is a thing that is not easily done with a vestibule containing a stairwell—note NJ Transit's newer cab cars that don't even have a door on the driver's side of the cab.

Run to the upper deck of 3oth street, Let the people change trains

Not feasible, because the RDC service in the past went to Reading Terminal...so your RDC would have to thus go via the Center City Tunnel to get to the upper level of 30th Street, something that is just as unfeasible now as in the past. Change at North Broad? That could have been done two decades ago.

Irish Chieftain wrote:FRA approved

Run to the upper deck of 3oth street, Let the people change trains

Not feasible, because the RDC service in the past went to Reading Terminal...so your RDC would have to thus go via the Center City Tunnel to get to the upper level of 30th Street, something that is just as unfeasible now as in the past.

Upper level transfers would be possible with the trains being routed via the Ivy Ridge Line (after a connection between it and the Norristown Line was built)....that's what he meant. Still, the Lower Level would be better from an operational standpoint, as the Upper Level gets clogged with trains now during rush hours.

Besides, SEPTA wasn't too concerned with maintaining their own RDC's in the past beyond keeping them fueled.

RDC's = Yes they are updated as to design and meet the FRA requirements similar to the Dallas Metro requirements that were imposed on the DART. Remember Dallas was faced with extremly high start up costs and went the RDC route to meet the requirement of the freight railroads as well as build up passanger strength at a time when there was no (limited) funding. It wordked bccause they now have a database to reference in their plans rather than computer generated "numbers".

Not trying to say NO just trying to find a way to say yes.

Routing - while not as "track smart" as others perhaps we could find a way to route the train via Wayne junction and down the Belmont grade
into 30th station. but ...
I thought the proposed route of the metro would take it right down the west river line and into Penn via the falls yard - Belmont line. Probably off base here but just a thought

At any rate if no holds then it is no, but thinking out of the box sometimes get you to an answer that pays off.

Silverliner II wrote: A portion of the Silverliner V order as well as any future add-ons were to be the initial equipment for Metro Rail as well as replacing the Silverliner II and III fleets.

Not so. The RFP called for 104 cars as the base order, and two options: the first for 8(?) cars to allow for ridership growth, and the second for 40 cars to equip Schuylkill Valley.

Interestingly, the bid from Rotem (the Korean builder) was more expensive for the option cars than for the base order, while the Kawasaki bid was less for the option cars than for the base order. When you include the option cars, the total price in Kawasaki's bid was substantially less than that of Rotem's.

rdgrailfan wrote:Why would SEPTA not consider purchasing refrub RDC's from Canada. I believe the price per unit is $350k base. New engines up to date electronics etc and will function with the NS signals in place today. FRA approved.

While the initial cost of 40-year-old cars is pretty cheap, their useful service life is going to be a lot less than that of new equipment, and you're not going to have the amenities for the passengers or all the upgraded technology that reduces maintenance requirements.

Vehicle cost is not the obstacle to Schuylkill Valley--the cost of fulfilling SEPTA's wish for separate tracks is.

Hi:
My impression is that a company in Colorado (or someplace) has rebuilt RDCs with Cummings diesel motors that are considered very reliable. Also, I am not sure if RDCs had bathrooms (Maybe Irish Chieftan knows about this), but I would rather ride to Reading in a fifty year old RDC with a bathroom than a trolley with no bathrooms. I am sure that they could be retrofitted to meet FRA requirements.
Also, there is a non-electrified connector between the NEC and the inbound tracks of the Norristown line that could be used to route trains from Notown onto the NEC although there are problems with this scenario with the heavy traffic on the NEC and the need for switching to the outbound tracks. There might also be problems for outbound trains on the NEC that would have to cross over as well. At least that would be one way to at least get trains from the R6 to the upper (or lower) level of 30th street station.
Also, I think the problem with changing the ventilation at Market East and Suburban Station for accommodating diesels is that there would have to be asbestos removal from Suburban Station. I have seen diesels pass through the tunnel though - I think it was the Strasburg RR.
greg19050