"Patriot Corridor"

I have no idea what <i>will</i> happen, but I sure know what I <i>want</i> to happen: PAR trackage to be taken over by an organization interested in running a railroad well. I don't care if it is NS, CP, PW, NECR, VRS, MBTA, DBB, or SNCF (but not CSX) - I just want someone to grow the business and get trucks off the roads.

I think NS should be the one to take over, frankly, regardless of how PAR employees feel about it, because I think a city as large as Boston should be served by two Class I railroads. I understand why NS wouldn't want to buy in - the NE lines would be isolated from the rest of its network, and a lot of money would have to be poured in on top of the purchase price. But I think it is important enough to the regional economy that the state governments should put up an incentive package of some sort to entice NS to make an offer they wouldn't make on the basis of PAR's asking price alone. That would be hard to do, but I think "signals" could be sent that state governments would make certain investments if the property changed hands.

Anyway, I'll just have to wait for events to unfold, along with everyone else. It's not in our hands.

I would like to thank those who have taken the time to respond to the post. I think it's safe to say there is some sort of new cooperation between NS and Pan Am. How it is manifested, and when, I guess remains to be seen. I think people familiar with the internal workings of a railroad would agree that a lot of behind the scenes work goes on before any tangible sign of change is visible.

One thing railfans may not remember is that what railroad workers are told from supervisors, management, etc doesn't always come true. So even though the information came from a "credible source", things may not happen as expected.

I'm very happy that the post was able to stay on topic. I didn't want it to turn into a "I knew that before he did", or "I know more than he does" type of discussion. I think there has been a great deal of information shared, and I'd again like to thank those who contributed. I look forward to reading what happens next.

Thanks PT1101, and thanks to all who have participated and kept it civil. Let's keep it that way. I like to keep this place as drama-free as possible.

If anybody wants to vacate the sandbox and take their toys with them, that's their call. God knows there are dozens of other places on the internet to discuss New England railroading. I'd like to think that this is one of the better places for such discussions.

Gary Young wrote:If anybody has "inside" info it is me and I am not talking LOL

Suddenly I am reminded of the dog on the TV commercials for Bush's Baked Beans.

Otto Vondrak wrote:...but don't be mad if people are skeptical, it's nothing personal directed towards you (or anyone else).

Which is exactly what I said... but it was taken as a personal attack nevertheless. Maybe I just didn't word it properly, although I re-read it a few times and I thought it was pretty clear.

Just because people are skeptical of someone doesn't mean they think that person is dishonest, and it doesn't mean that those skeptical folks are being negative.

All I know is that when railroad lines change hands, there's a whole public process that goes with it.

Not necessarily true. And if it's not an outright change of ownership, things can be kept VERY quiet up until the switch is thrown, so to speak. I've personally worked on such a deal on a class one; the only two folks in the field that knew were the division GM and his no. 2 man.

For better or worse, many of the past "insider" tip-offs have not been an issue of crying wolf. It's been an issue of deals souring for various reasons. GRS/PAR has been quietly on the block for several years now. CSX, CP and NS (and others?) have dabbled with a purchase. CSX has the least to gain based on their current Boston route, so was never overly interested. To NS and CP, the advantages are more clear. However, CP's long-term intentions for the old DH have been ambivalent, at best... particularly now, as they are focused west to the PRB, where the real money is. Take into consideration PAR's ridiculous asking price ( 3-4x reasonable value) and their penchant for confrontational, non-collaborative negotiations, and you can understand why so many discussions have gone south.

I've heard about this joint venture deal from credible sources and would love to hear more if someone wants to e-mail me off-list ([email protected]).

Also take into account that NS is fixing up the Southern Tier from Waverly into Binghamton (while keeping the double track from what I've been told), bringing it up to 50 MPH this work season, as well as having NYS&W fix up the east end to 40 MPH by the end of the year, if I recall that agreement correctly.

And since this is the logical route of this traffic, things seem to be falling into place. As it is, the 205/206s are getting longer (except yesterday when they wedged a Taylor cut under the Chenango Street bridge, but that's another story for another time). Plus, there are rumblings that we may be seeing the 24Z/25K again this maintenance season since NS liked their performance last year.

Things to consider.

Been checking the NS web site almost daily for the announcement-nothing yet. I also haven't seen any mention of this on any other board
On a related note, one of NS's joint ventures got torpedoed by the STB. They'd planned to form an independent railroad in Michigan and Indiana with a third party, consisting of NS routes and trackage rights. The NS press release:
http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/ ... deral.html

I don't think a buy out of Guilford by Norfolk Southern or any other
railroad for that matter would necessarily benefit New England. I agree
that Guilford's service may not be the best but they are still serving some
lines that I think it is nothing short of remarkable that still have a train
over them today. There is not too much left in their part of Connecticut
and I have to wonder if their operation there is profitable. There is
probably some other areas too where they are not recovering a
reasonable return.
Item in point, Guilford still has a shop facility in Waterville, Maine that
provides decent employement for people who live in that particular area
and that facility would be unlikely to survive an NS takeover.
The Amtrak passenger operation between Boston and Portland enjoys one
of Amtrak's best on time records on a railroad line that is owned, operated
and dispatched by Guilford, would that continue under Norfolk Southern, it
might well not and it certainally would not under CSX.
A change in ownership is not always an improvement, we have seen that
in many examples all over the US over a period of years.
Noel Weaver

I know we're beating a dead horse here (no pun intended), but I just don't see NS thinking the current or potential traffic density on Pan Am is worth investing the amount it would take to buy the entire property. I think the plausible model is a marketing partnership involving primarily intermodal, or a partnership with PAR and perhaps other investors to create a new railroad company to operate some of all of Pan Am's routes. I think it's good to remember that relatively speaking, Pan Am is a low density freight hauler in a very competitive region for hauling freight. Trucking dominates the freight market in New England overwhelmingly as compared to other regions in the US. Even companies that provide superior service and aggressive marketing, such as P&W, have their work cut out for them to stay competitive, and in the case of the P&W, they benefit from their strategic locations at the reinvigorated Prov Port and the Stackbridge intermodal facility in Worcester. Maybe NS sees some potential in New England with a partner that would be positioned to grow some bussiness and provide improved service.

To be honest, I can't see Pan Am selling the MEC. That's where the money is... always has been. The B&M is an important bridge, but the big customers that pay the bills are on the MEC. So... keep the MEC, maintain it minimally, make a nice profit that way, lease (or operate jointly) the B&M to someone else who is willing to sink money into maintenance... makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

MEC407 wrote:To be honest, I can't see Pan Am selling the MEC. That's where the money is... always has been. The B&M is an important bridge, but the big customers that pay the bills are on the MEC. So... keep the MEC, maintain it minimally, make a nice profit that way, lease (or operate jointly) the B&M to someone else who is willing to sink money into maintenance... makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

That's a good point. That's been the common scenario for an NS buyout, they get the B&M and Pan Am keeps the rest. My only thought though is that Pan Am might unwilling or unwise to give up the revenue from the coal trains and the intermodal, as well as the local bussiness around Ayer that consists of grain, plastics, and other commodities. However when you head west of Fitchburg, there are only a handful of traffic generating customers on the entire system from Waterbury to Rotterdam Jct. So it balances out that they have to maintain a number of miles of track just to be able to serve a concentration of customers east of Fitchburg. And it's possible that a stand alone MEC might not be viable just dependant on one source of traffic. I'm interested to see what happens when the interchange at Danville is re-built. Maybe more outbound traffic from MEC will be interchanged with SLR, making MEC less dependant on B&M, and allowing the closure of Rigby.

Sorry dude, any change is improvement over these loonies.

Is their CT operation profitable? Probably not, because they choose to not make it. One crew is left, one engine. Another operation would rake it in there. Same goes for the Conn River. The list can go on and on... Why is it nothing short of remarkable, they are the one's who let the lines wane!

Noel Weaver wrote:I don't think a buy out of Guilford by Norfolk Southern or any other
railroad for that matter would necessarily benefit New England. I agree
that Guilford's service may not be the best but they are still serving some
lines that I think it is nothing short of remarkable that still have a train
over them today. There is not too much left in their part of Connecticut
and I have to wonder if their operation there is profitable. There is
probably some other areas too where they are not recovering a
reasonable return.
Item in point, Guilford still has a shop facility in Waterville, Maine that
provides decent employement for people who live in that particular area
and that facility would be unlikely to survive an NS takeover.
The Amtrak passenger operation between Boston and Portland enjoys one
of Amtrak's best on time records on a railroad line that is owned, operated
and dispatched by Guilford, would that continue under Norfolk Southern, it
might well not and it certainally would not under CSX.
A change in ownership is not always an improvement, we have seen that
in many examples all over the US over a period of years.
Noel Weaver

newpylong wrote:Sorry dude, any change is improvement over these loonies.

Is their CT operation profitable? Probably not, because they choose to not make it. One crew is left, one engine. Another operation would rake it in there. Same goes for the Conn River. The list can go on and on... Why is it nothing short of remarkable, they are the one's who let the lines wane!

You need to take a ride to Connecticut and see for yourself just why there
is only one crew and one engine remaining. Waterbury has very little
left for the railroad with all of the heavy industrial users of the railroad
freight service GONE, Torrington which is on the Naugy today also had
much freight business in years past, today the heavy industry there is
also GONE. Naugatuck in the New Haven and Penn Central days had a
local freight out of the Waterbury Yard that just worked all day switching
the rubber and chemical plants in Naugatuck, today the rubber and
chemical plants and the thousands of jobs that they provided are GONE.
Ansonia and Derby also had heavy industry, the brass mills in Ansonia
today lie in ruin and never again will provide any meaningful jobs or
railroad business either.
As I stated, if you do not believe me, see for yourself, ride the Metro-
North Waterbury Branch and you can get an excellent idea of just how
bad things are today. Most other areas of Southern New England are
pretty bad today compared with a few years back, it is not just the areas
served by Guilford.
I realize that Guilford has had many problems over the years but I am
trying to be fair with them. No major railroad would touch the Guilford
operations in Connecticut and I am pretty positive of that one.
Noel Weaver