"Patriot Corridor"

NS has trackage right up to Saratoga, NY on the D&H and uses their own crews up to there. They used to have Haulage rights to Waterville where they used the ramp ( I assume they still have these rights).

FWIW, I spoke to another manager at Pan Am today and he says that the coal trains to Bow are NOT haulage righ trains and are simply paid merchandise trains. So now i have two officials with different stories. One is obviously wrong.

He did agree that the coal contract is in fact NS's, not Guilford and that is why NS supplies the cars, power and is the company that gets paid first and then in turn pays GTI, but the rest, who knows.

NV290 wrote:FWIW, I spoke to another manager at Pan Am today and he says that the coal trains to Bow are NOT haulage right trains and are simply paid merchandise trains. So now i have two officials with different stories. One is obviously wrong.

He did agree that the coal contract is in fact NS's, not Guilford and that is why NS supplies the cars, power and is the company that gets paid first and then in turn pays GTI, but the rest, who knows.

Here are your #1 problems..... Asking people who may not even know the difference between haulage and tracking rights, or a contract, or a gentleman’s agreement. And stating that a statement made by someone else is false, and show no facts, just "someone told me" to back it up, or just use speculation.

As I posted before, the Bow trains had nothing to do with NS haulage rights, to which you replied:

Actually, no. The NHB coal trains are 100% NS trains. Guilford is paid to haul them, nothing more. Guilford is paid by NS after they get paid from PSNH.

The NHB trains originate (Usually) at Bailey Mine in PA and use 100% NS power and NS cars. Guilford is simply the delivery service.

So what? Learn your facts...just because something uses 100% of someone elses stuff, does not mean it is a haulage or trackage right, or anything...it could be done just because it is easier for both parties. Secondly on this one.....the power is NOT 100% NS.....it hosts about 50/50 NS and other foreign WESTERN power. Thirdly, NS car....yeah well they are loaded at a NS served mine...and PSNH no longer has their untily owned cars....kinda like they were mostly CR cars when it was CR and a CR served mine, and PLE cars when PLE was part of it, and serving on a joint PLE/CR mine.

DOBO runs to Boston with "100%" NHN power and cars...but that does not mean that NHN has trackage rights to Boston.

Yes the coal contract is NS's...it can't be PARs as it is not a PAR served mine. NS gets their share first, then PAR gets their part. Thats pretty much how it works on every "merchandise" train that crosses more than one railroad, unless the railroads have a separate agreement as to who gets paid first, or both at the same time.

The Northern main or NH main (depending on who you ask) does not have any haulage or trackage agreement with NS....as proven by no such agreement listing, and that not even NS acknowledges it.

Prod for facts, then post comments. Just posting "not so" and then posting false information makes it believing rumors such as "NS to sign an agreement" all that much easier to pass off as false.

I agree.. I don't believe that the Bow trains are an NS anything other than power and hoppers. They neither have haulage or trackage rights there. I believe its a simple fact of where the heck else are they going to get the coal from.... the plant wants the coal that comes from the mines served on the NS. The plant pays Guilford the hefty sum for delivering the coal, and in turn the ST pays NS for the interchange traffic. I am sure part of the deal includes the foreign power to deliver and return the train. At any given time I'm sure they can receive coal from the PW or even via Rotterdam and CSX if they wanted to.

newpylong wrote:I agree.. I don't believe that the Bow trains are an NS anything other than power and hoppers. They neither have haulage or trackage rights there. I believe its a simple fact of where the heck else are they going to get the coal from.... the plant wants the coal that comes from the mines served on the NS. The plant pays Guilford the hefty sum for delivering the coal, and in turn the ST pays NS for the interchange traffic. I am sure part of the deal includes the foreign power to deliver and return the train. At any given time I'm sure they can receive coal from the PW or even via Rotterdam and CSX if they wanted to.

Generally the coal supplier holds the transportation contract and supplies the coal to the utility with transportation included (FOB Bow). The coal supplier, who pays for the transportation, negotiates and contracts with the originating railroad who, in turn, negotiates with those railroads that can participate. It is the originating railroad that holds the contract and receives payment from origin to destination and then through some negotiated arrangement pays or settles with the other participating carriers. In this way, the originating railroad selects which route and arrangements are "best" for themselves (and their customer). Of course under deregulation, there are many variables involving power, cars, payment and settlement, car-hire, etc. etc. that can be negotiated and agreed upon amongst the players, so its hard to know all of those arrangements. These contracts are generally long-term and confidential.

The one thing that we see from the Bow coal trains is that NS power (including foreign power "running time" on NS) is run-through without Pan Am reciprocation.

PSNH's Merrimack station at Bow has gotten coal from various sources over time. I'm aware of them receiving coal via ship and highway from Portsmouth, by ship from Providence via P&W (they just received a P&W train), and of course the PA mines, which has been the major source over the years. The coal can come from anywhere via any practicable mode (except slurry pipeline!), so it isn't written in stone that all the coal comes over NS and Pan Am.
Thanks to everyone that explained haulage vs. trackage rights and other aspects of interline freight procedures and agreements.

Ian MacMillan wrote:

NV290 wrote:FWIW, I spoke to another manager at Pan Am today and he says that the coal trains to Bow are NOT haulage right trains and are simply paid merchandise trains. So now i have two officials with different stories. One is obviously wrong.

He did agree that the coal contract is in fact NS's, not Guilford and that is why NS supplies the cars, power and is the company that gets paid first and then in turn pays GTI, but the rest, who knows.

Here are your #1 problems..... Asking people who may not even know the difference between haulage and tracking rights, or a contract, or a gentleman’s agreement. And stating that a statement made by someone else is false, and show no facts, just "someone told me" to back it up, or just use speculation.

As I posted before, the Bow trains had nothing to do with NS haulage rights, to which you replied:

Actually, no. The NHB coal trains are 100% NS trains. Guilford is paid to haul them, nothing more. Guilford is paid by NS after they get paid from PSNH.

The NHB trains originate (Usually) at Bailey Mine in PA and use 100% NS power and NS cars. Guilford is simply the delivery service.

So what? Learn your facts...just because something uses 100% of someone elses stuff, does not mean it is a haulage or trackage right, or anything...it could be done just because it is easier for both parties. Secondly on this one.....the power is NOT 100% NS.....it hosts about 50/50 NS and other foreign WESTERN power. Thirdly, NS car....yeah well they are loaded at a NS served mine...and PSNH no longer has their untily owned cars....kinda like they were mostly CR cars when it was CR and a CR served mine, and PLE cars when PLE was part of it, and serving on a joint PLE/CR mine.

DOBO runs to Boston with "100%" NHN power and cars...but that does not mean that NHN has trackage rights to Boston.

Yes the coal contract is NS's...it can't be PARs as it is not a PAR served mine. NS gets their share first, then PAR gets their part. Thats pretty much how it works on every "merchandise" train that crosses more than one railroad, unless the railroads have a separate agreement as to who gets paid first, or both at the same time.

The Northern main or NH main (depending on who you ask) does not have any haulage or trackage agreement with NS....as proven by no such agreement listing, and that not even NS acknowledges it.

Prod for facts, then post comments. Just posting "not so" and then posting false information makes it believing rumors such as "NS to sign an agreement" all that much easier to pass off as false.

I posted my comments based on what two MANAGERS at PAR told me. If the info is wrong, not my problem. I even went sa far as to say i did'nt know who was right. Take it up with them. Based on what you are saying, nobody should post ANYTHING here since there is no way to be sure it's factual. NOTHING. Even the fact you are arguing my point by saying i'm wrong and your right. Where are YOUR facts to back up your claims?. Practice what you preach. But in the end, i don't care. This is an internet forum for 99% railfans and 1% actual railroaders. But it's 100% ENTERTAINMENT. People need to stop getting so wound up over nonsense.

I am not going to waste any more time arguing with this. I have to go run a REAL train. Not a model railroad. Done.

So..... Anyone hear anything lately about the supposed "Patriot Corridor" (the title of this thread)?

NV290 wrote:I posted my comments based on what two MANAGERS at PAR told me. If the info is wrong, not my problem. I even went sa far as to say i did'nt know who was right. Take it up with them. Based on what you are saying, nobody should post ANYTHING here since there is no way to be sure it's factual. NOTHING. Even the fact you are arguing my point by saying i'm wrong and your right. Where are YOUR facts to back up your claims?. Practice what you preach. But in the end, i don't care. This is an internet forum for 99% railfans and 1% actual railroaders. But it's 100% ENTERTAINMENT. People need to stop getting so wound up over nonsense.

I am not going to waste any more time arguing with this. I have to go run a REAL train. Not a model railroad. Done.

Why so much drama with such a insignificant point? So you were wrong, you're not the first or the last. It happens. Stop arguing about it and move on. I figured that out not to long ago.

guilfordrailfan wrote:So..... Anyone hear anything lately about the supposed "Patriot Corridor" (the title of this thread)?

I haven't heard anything else about it, other than what has been speculated here. There's still nothing about it on NS's web site, as far as I can tell, and I've seen nothing in the industry press or the news media.

Just recieved Via Email from NSCORP

May 15, 2008

Pan Am Railways and Norfolk Southern Create the Patriot Corridor to Improve Rail Service and Expand Capacity in New York and New England

NORTH BILLERICA, MASS., NORFOLK, VA. -- Pan Am Railways (PAR) and Norfolk Southern Railway Company (NS) have agreed to create an improved rail route between Albany, N.Y., and the greater Boston, Mass., area called the "Patriot Corridor." Investments in the Patriot Corridor are expected to improve track quality and customer service, boost train speed and reliability, and increase capacity on the route. PAR and NS each will have a 50 percent interest in the newly formed railroad company, called "Pan Am Southern."

PAR has agreed to transfer to the joint venture its 155-mile main line track that runs between Mechanicville (Albany), N.Y., and Ayer, Mass., along with 281 miles of secondary and branch lines, including trackage rights, in Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, and Vermont. NS has agreed to transfer cash and other property valued at $140 million to the joint venture, $87.5 million of which is expected to be invested within a three-year period in capital improvements on the Patriot Corridor, such as terminal expansions, track and signal upgrades. The companies also anticipate the construction of new intermodal and automotive terminals in the Albany area. PAR’s Springfield Terminal Railway subsidiary has agreed to provide all railroad services for the joint venture.

"We are excited to partner with Norfolk Southern on the Patriot Corridor. Since the Conrail transaction was implemented in 1999, both Pan Am Railways and Norfolk Southern have been working to bring additional high quality rail transportation options to our New England customer base. This joint venture is the culmination of those efforts," said David Fink, Pan Am Railways’ president. "With energy prices continuing to rise, the Patriot Corridor will give our customers additional capacity and speed to get their products to market."

"Norfolk Southern has been working with Pan Am Railways to improve rail service and increase transportation options between the Norfolk Southern system and the Boston area," said Wick Moorman, Norfolk Southern’s chief executive officer. "The Patriot Corridor creates a new level of rail competition in upstate New York and New England by improving train speed, reliability, and capacity, as well as strengthening connections between the region’s short line and regional railroads and Norfolk Southern’s 22-state network."

The parties will seek approval for the transaction with the U.S. Surface Transportation Board. Additional materials describing the transaction will be posted on Norfolk Southern’s Web site, www.nscorp.com, and will be furnished to the SEC as part of a Current Report on Form 8-K.

Norfolk Southern is currently improving the Heartland Corridor, a high-capacity rail route linking the Port of Virginia (Norfolk), Columbus, Ohio, and Chicago, and has announced the Crescent Corridor, an initiative to divert freight traffic from highways to rail between New Orleans, Memphis, and the Northeast.

Pan Am Railways is the Northeast’s largest regional railroad. It operates over 2,000 route miles in Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Vermont, Connecticut, New York and Atlantic Canada. Pan Am Railways interchanges traffic with fifteen railroads throughout its network.

Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) is one of the nation’s premier transportation companies. Its Norfolk Southern Railway subsidiary operates approximately 21,000 route miles in 22 states and the District of Columbia, serving every major container port in the eastern United States and providing superior connections to western rail carriers. Norfolk Southern operates the most extensive intermodal network in the East and is North America’s largest rail carrier of metals and automotive products.

Any statements contained in this news release which are not related to historical facts are forward-looking statements as that term is defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Such forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties (noted in Norfolk Southern’s filings with the SEC) which could cause actual results to differ.

# # #

Pan Am Railways Contact:
Cynthia Scarano, 978-663-1028, 978-423-2231 (cell), [email protected]

Norfolk Southern Contacts:
Media: Rudy Husband, 610-567-3377, [email protected]
Investors: Leanne Marilley, 757-629-2861, [email protected]

------------------
Norfolk Southern Corporation
http://www.nscorp.com





I also recieved some other information which I'm not ready to divulge yet until this settles down. Big annoucement!

Here is the link to the official press release on Norfolk Southern's web site:

http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/ ... 508_2.html

OH GOD!

YES! YES! YES!

easy there! down boy, down!

Ian MacMillan wrote:OH GOD!

YES! YES! YES!

Need a towel?